• Hey Visitor,

    In light of recent events, all community members in the US should reach out to their representative in regards to the Stop Online Suicide Assistance Forums Act that has been introduced in congress. This bill, if passed, could criminalize this community and hold it liable for simply hosting information.

    You should be able to locate and contact your represenative by going to this website. You can also contact Lori Trahan, the one spearheading this bill by calling her office at (202) 225-3411 or by leaving a message on the contact form on her site.

    One of the best ways to combat this is to make your voice heard. We're not political activists, but we made this notice to let you know that you do have a voice and that you do have representives that represent you in congress.
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
I don't understand this big gripe SaSu has with the suicidal being more mentally ill than other groups. It doesn't take away from our pain, our experience is just as respectable, just as real. Mental illness is a very insidious form of pain that's gaining recognition nowadays.

Suicidals kill themselves because they're physically or mentally ill, or both, and that's it. Even doing it because you lost a partner can be thrown into the mentally ill basket as other people are able to build themselves up after that loss.

I accept a challenge here if anyone wants. I'm on sick leave today. Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.
 
P

pauly1963

Existence is evil, meaningless and pointless.
Nov 12, 2022
108
I don't understand this big gripe SaSu has with the suicidal being more mentally ill than other groups. It doesn't take away from our pain, our experience is just as respectable, just as real. Mental illness is a very insidious form of pain that's gaining recognition nowadays.

Suicidals kill themselves because they're physically or mentally ill, or both, and that's it. Even doing it because you lost a partner can be thrown into the mentally ill basket as other people are able to build themselves up after that loss.

I accept a challenge here if anyone wants. I'm on sick leave today. Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.
The only example I can think of is existential crisis. It is mainly a philosophical reason for the desire to take ones own life.
 
N

never mind me

Member
Nov 7, 2022
38
There are known cases of people killing themselves in order to escape suffering that others would inflict on them or because of fear of public shaming. For example women who get raped and are worried about the stigma attached to it (in most predominantly Muslim countries a woman who was raped still faces social exclusion and it used to be like this in many Western countries, too). Or look at the (now no longer existing) practice of Seppuku in Japan that expected a samurai that had done something wrong and brought shame to himself to kill himself in order to restore his honor. I believe there may still be people who have done something morally wrong and kill themselves, because they can't live with what they have done.
Or what about people who kill themselves in order to avoid a long prison sentence? What about people who actually are in jail and are maltreated and kill themselves to escape further maltreatment? Or people who fear arrest and can reasonably assume that they will be tortured and possibly killed and kill themselves before they get caught?
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
There are known cases of people killing themselves in order to escape suffering that others would inflict on them or because of fear of public shaming. For example women who get raped and are worried about the stigma attached to it (in most predominantly Muslim countries a woman who was raped still faces social exclusion and it used to be like this in many Western countries, too). Or look at the (now no longer existing) practice of Seppuku in Japan that expected a samurai that had done something wrong and brought shame to himself to kill himself in order to restore his honor. I believe there may still be people who have done something morally wrong and kill themselves, because they can't live with what they have done.
Or what about people who kill themselves in order to avoid a long prison sentence? What about people who actually are in jail and are maltreated and kill themselves to escape further maltreatment? Or people who fear arrest and can reasonably assume that they will be tortured and possibly killed and kill themselves before they get caught?
This is a very clear cut case type where suicide is preventive and not necessarily associated with PRESENT psychological or physical discomfort, but with FORESEEABLE distress.

I agree, thanks for your contribution to the thread.
The only example I can think of is existential crisis. It is mainly a philosophical reason for the desire to take ones own life.
Unfortunately this blends in with depression in many cases IMO. It's a grey area for me. But I hear you. It can be.
 
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Message In A Bottle

Message In A Bottle

Experienced
Apr 1, 2022
200
I thought of something - what about for karma? The movie Gran Torino comes to mind. The main character enters a neighborhood filled with thugs for the sole purpose of being shot. He made it seem like he pulled the gun on them first, but really he was unarmed. He did this so the Chinese family could get justice for the crime they committed on the girl.
 
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F

Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
1,266
I think the main problem with throwing everyone that is suicidal into the mentally ill category is the implication that we can't make rational decisions for ourselves. (Maybe you could argue that our thinking has become negatively skewed- so we can't... I don't know.)

It would very much come into play if assisted suicide clinics are legalised across the world. 'No- we won't allow you to kill yourselves because you simply aren't thinking clearly. We need to protect you from yourselves. Here, have a Prozac and some therapy- it will make you feel better.'

Also, as it stands now- writting off every suicide as a result of mental illness tends to overshadow everything else. WHY were they mentally ill? (I guess I'm largely focussing on depression here which is perhaps one of the main 'illnesses' that seems to have the most variations in intensity.) So- If it was depression- why were they depressed? Did they experience trauma or abuse at some point? Was it financially motivated? There ARE reasons behind why a person takes their life other than- 'they're life was fine but they were crazy.'

Sometimes these other reasons paint an unpleasant picture of our society- some people here are suffering due to the negligence of larger companies or other people. I expect the majority of us are now struggling to pay the bills because our salaries don't match the cost of living. Some people are suffering in abusive relationships. Some people simply can't have or achieve anywhere near the life they want and can't stand their life as it is. It's easier to put the blame on the person who just killed themselves though.

How many times do we hear how 'well' these people were doing? With bright futures ahead of them- but they clearly didn't see it like that- were they wrong? Or is life just bloody difficult? Is it a mental illness to look at your current situation, look at your prospects and feel like the future REALLY doesn't look good? I think there's this notion that- well, everyone struggles- you just have to get on with it. But why? For those around you- ok. For society- a begrudging- ok. For you though? That really depends on whether you CAN get better...

I certainly agree that it isn't 'natural' for any animal (including humans) to want to kill itself. The primal part of our brain STILL does it's best to cling on to life despite what the thinking part wants. (Why we have to battle SI to do it.) So- is the thinking part 'natural'- I mean- of course it is- it's bilogical. But does it function in a 'natural' way? Perhaps not- it doesn't act off of instinct for a start. It takes in all the things our bodies experience and it ruminates on it. Why is it then considered ill when it sees the world as it is and thinks- this looks bad?

They can't really say having ANY negative thoughts is a mental illness although having predominantly negative thoughts seems to be. Again- I don't know- I'm not a scientist. Perhaps the brain does change, the more times you have these thoughts till you get stuck in a rut- low serotonin levels and all that. Still, do the MAJORITY of people you know just breeze through life or are they struggling too? We can't ALL be mentally ill! Or can we? Kind of scary...

Yet, if we say we're finding it difficult and it's causing us to be unhappy to the point where we want to take our own lives- we are classed as mentally ill. I mean- I don't know- perhaps if enough bad shit happens in your life, maybe it does change the way your brain works. Surely initially though- it was a basic apraisal of your situation- 'This sucks... Is it likely to get better for me?... Probably not- without an enormous amount of effort and maybe not even then. Is it really worth it then?' ...Why is that crazy? Seems kind of logical to me.

As for me, I wouldn't say I'm obviously mentally ill. I've just had my hair cut. I laughed and conversed with the hair dresser the entire time. I guess I'm 'lucky.' I still get to enjoy life here and there. Having said that, I am finalising my will and getting my method prepared. I'm waiting on my Dad to go first, so I don't know how long I need to stick around- I don't know I can even do it then... I am a complete coward.

My reason? My creative freelance career has financially failed. I don't want to go back into some shit job that I'm going to hate. My freetime simply won't be enough to distract me from how much I hate the job and hate my life. Of course- I could be entirely wrong- I could actually find a job I like but my 42 years of life on this planet suggests otherwise (for me.)

I want to quit because I have no interest in being part of the system anymore. I guess I could go on anti-depressants like some of my friends that seem to zombie-fy you so you can cope with your job and your life. (A shocking 1 in 3 people are on ant-depressants in their workplace!) But I don't want to. I don't have enough in my life other than my creative work to make it worthwhile.

Again- I COULD make the effort to try but I also know from experience that you can't really rely on friends. For me, it feels like a rational decision. Is there some mental illness there? Probably- I definitely think I'm obsessive, somewhat depressed and have social anxiety. Could my life improve- possibly but only with an ENORMOUS effort on my part.

Am I at a point where I'm unable to make rational decisions about my future? (Including ending it) No- I would say I have enough of my faculties about me to understand the choice and make a logical decision. Sorry for the long post. 👏 and thank you if you got this far!
 
Doom

Doom

Member
Nov 21, 2022
57
Can we even prove that someone is really insane? My take is that sanity is something that cannot be proved, because all the moral values that you believe make you sane are actually subjective concepts created by your own mind and by teachings of other minds, responsible for the society we live in. So there's no way to prove that someone is actually insane. You can tell me that your mind is healthier than so-and-so because you love life, because you follow society's laws, because you haven't been diagnosed with mental illness, but the crux of the matter is in the fact that all of this are nothing more than your point of view of what is "sane", not something that was written on the universe, not some objective truth. Every time a pro leifers says t the suicidal should be stopped because they are mentally ill, these are thoughts that comes to my mind.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,862
Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.

Being a difficult, artificial termination of a biological process, suicide definitely seems to be associated with some sort of dysfunction in all cases, sometimes belonging to the human collective itself (eg. kamikaze). It could be concluded that suicide would not exist in a world in which all beings were treated with care, and high quality physical and mental wellbeing were universal. It becomes a question of how to proceed given that we do not live in such a world.

The large, difficult grey area pertains to a rational mind concluding that living is worse than dying, yet being tainted by some degree of anhedonia in its cognitive process. Long-winded philosophical positions about the futility and meaninglessness of life can be seen as attempts to legitimise such anhedonia and deny an underlying disorder. I would add that I've seen profoundly disruptive mental illnesses which cause people to possess immensely positive thinking - my bipolar aunty's endless ravings about her own magnificence spring to mind.

The closest thing to a contrarian example I could think of is elderly euthanasia, though you might retort that facing ageing and certain death is itself the ultimate physical illness.
 
Nangijala

Nangijala

Member
Jul 25, 2022
9
I accept a challenge here if anyone wants. I'm on sick leave today. Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.

Interesting question, I suppose some cases where one might not be mentally or physically ill and yet CTB historically would be honorable seppuku and the cases of roman leaders falling on their sword after a defeat.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
Interesting question, I suppose some cases where one might not be mentally or physically ill and yet CTB historically would be honorable seppuku and the cases of roman leaders falling on their sword after a defeat.
This falls into the category of preventive suicides. So far people have easily provided me with alternative types I hadn't thought about initially.

Can we even prove that someone is really insane? My take is that sanity is something that cannot be proved, because all the moral values that you believe make you sane are actually subjective concepts created by your own mind and by teachings of other minds, responsible for the society we live in. So there's no way to prove that someone is actually insane. You can tell me that your mind is healthier than so-and-so because you love life, because you follow society's laws, because you haven't been diagnosed with mental illness, but the crux of the matter is in the fact that all of this are nothing more than your point of view of what is "sane", not something that was written on the universe, not some objective truth. Every time a pro leifers says t the suicidal should be stopped because they are mentally ill, these are thoughts that comes to my mind.
Morality and insanity are removed from each other, but your larger point stands for me: culture dictates what is adaptive behavior to an extent. Some of what is decidedly progressive today was considered dangerous and insane 200 years ago.

However, strong delusions (particularly those that cause distress) and self harm are logically and abstractly considered markers of insanity, as our foundation as living organisms is seeing clearly enough what's going to take decisions that lead to survival and reproduction and then self harm is exactly the opposite of the expected behavior in a living organism.

So on a deeper, static and atemporal level insanity is solidly defined by Biology, for me. On a more dynamic and transient level insanity is defined by culture. That temporality or contingency makes this type of insanity irrelevant.
 
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makethepainstop

makethepainstop

Enlightened
Sep 16, 2022
1,862
I don't understand this big gripe SaSu has with the suicidal being more mentally ill than other groups. It doesn't take away from our pain, our experience is just as respectable, just as real. Mental illness is a very insidious form of pain that's gaining recognition nowadays.

Suicidals kill themselves because they're physically or mentally ill, or both, and that's it. Even doing it because you lost a partner can be thrown into the mentally ill basket as other people are able to build themselves up after that loss.

I accept a challenge here if anyone wants. I'm on sick leave today. Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.
No prob, how bout people who have come to the cold hard logical decision, that nothing can make their dreams happen. What about people who hate their appearance?
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
No prob, how bout people who have come to the cold hard logical decision, that nothing can make their dreams happen. What about people who hate their appearance?
Suicide due to inability to realize our desires, that's an interesting one!

So we have:

- Preventive of current suffering: physical and mental.

- Preventive of future suffering, the easiest to comprehend example is the people that jumped from the Twin Towers as they burned, or how you said, because our ambitions or needs are not being satisfied. This causes suffering now and will cause suffering in the future. Seppuku and deaths of honor are in this category too.

- Altruistic suicide, sacrifice.
 
locked*n*loaded

locked*n*loaded

Visionary
Apr 15, 2022
2,500
This falls into the category of preventive suicides. So far people have easily provided me with alternative types I hadn't thought about initially.
All suicides are preventative in some respect; to escape current pain, future pain, physical or emotional. And as another poster said just because depression is categorized by the "normies" as a mental illness doesn't mean mean we aren't capable of making rational decisions for ourselves that are in our best interests. Who else in this world should be able to make decisions for us, especially one of such magnitude? I really do not understand why there is so much backlash to ctb by those who have absolutely no connection to a suicidal person. I can understand it coming from family and friends, but there are too many people who have no standing whatsoever in trying to intervene in someone's own personal decision, or what should be someone's own decision. I just don't get what they get out of it.
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
All suicides are preventative in some respect; to escape current pain, future pain, physical or emotional. And as another poster said just because depression is categorized by the "normies" as a mental illness doesn't mean mean we aren't capable of making rational decisions for ourselves that are in our best interests. Who else in this world should be able to make decisions for us, especially one of such magnitude? I really do not understand why there is so much backlash to ctb by those who have absolutely no connection to a suicidal person. I can understand it coming from family and friends, but there are too many people who have no standing whatsoever in trying to intervene in someone's own personal decision, or what should be someone's own decision. I just don't get what they get out of it.
They're so scared of death and so hung up on their own clinging to existence that

1. They want to prevent human death wherever possible, because the death of others reminds them of their own end. Open and mature talk about voluntary death would be a nightmare for them. The way the wealthy nations extend the life of miserable aged persons is evidence of this societal stance.

2. They cannot comprehend how for some people existing is no longer the most valuable possession that must be protected at all costs, therefore it is incumbent upon them to account for our lapse of judgement and suspend our bodily autonomy if we attempt or talk of attempting.
 
locked*n*loaded

locked*n*loaded

Visionary
Apr 15, 2022
2,500
They're so scared of death and so hung up on their own clinging to existence that

1. They want to prevent human death wherever possible, because the death of others reminds them of their own end. Open and mature talk about voluntary death would be a nightmare for them. The way the wealthy nations extend the life of miserable aged persons is evidence of this societal stance.

2. They cannot comprehend how for some people existing is no longer the most valuable possession that must be protected at all costs, therefore it is incumbent upon them to account for our lapse of judgement and suspend our bodily autonomy if we attempt or talk of attempting.
Well, it certainly can't be because they like to be around us, because we all know that isn't the case.
 
D

DysphoriaKilledMe

-
Nov 21, 2022
51
I think we don't like to be considered "mentally ill", because it fuels the pro life arguments that are against people being able to make the decision to end their lives. Being mental ill would mean to people that we are not in the right mind and making clear decisions to end our existences.
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
I think we don't like to be considered "mentally ill", because it fuels the pro life arguments that are against people being able to make the decision to end their lives. Being mental ill would mean to people that we are not in the right mind and making clear decisions to end our existences.
Yeah, this was well elaborated by a longer post above and I understood perfectly the point. Somehow, after being on here for half a year I had forgotten!

No, but really, I hadn't, I just wanted to stress that mental illness is common among the suicidal but that was already assuming being chronically depressed, anxious, psychotic etc doesn't mean that we shouldn't have autonomy over our own life (obviously).

The responses to this thread in general have been illuminating. This forum has something special, many users are particularly thoughtful.
 
Rounded Apathy

Rounded Apathy

Longing to return to stardust
Aug 8, 2022
728
I was mulling over this one for a bit. Thinking about it in context of that book I finished recently, as well as that I do see many users straight up admit to dealing with whatever "mental illness" even means (this will be revisited!)

I think there's a false notion of inextricability between mental illness and suicidality held by both in the general population, as well as the professional spheres that are supposed to help people dealing with one, the other, or both. And that is the sore point; someone can absolutely be suicidal while they are also mentally ill, but not strictly because they are. Wait...I don't think that gets the point across.

I'll just use myself as an example. To me, "health" means "working in accordance with the biological predisposition to live" because - irrefutably [come at me!] - life's imperative is to perpetuate itself, as any given organism as well as via propagation. "Physical illness" then is something obstructing this body-thing from being able to exist and function per this imperative as it might were the illness not there. "Mental illness" is the same, but pertaining to this mind-thing...which we have to assume other body-things have/contain/facilitate/any number of awkward verbs. If you hold that a mental desire to end your own existence is then inherently mental illness, well, that wraps things up neatly and all of us are in that boat. But I don't think that's how it's generally seen.

My impression of the general view, and even my own former opinion, is that suicidality is perceived a result of other mental illness. "So-and-so was depressed/anxious/paranoid/etc. so they killed themselves" - in a "y because x" causal relationship. Suicidality is seen as a symptom of many other mental issues, while how I now personally feel and perceive many others here to as well is that if anything, it's often a result. Just like you might see with someone who's lived longer than they can bear with a debilitating physical illness. I don't expect most people would say of someone who took their life some time after diagnosis of degenerative disease that suicide was a symptom of that, though it may well have directly led to it.

Uh oh, I sudden hit the point of tiredness where I'm not sure if I'm making sense. I was gonna finish with a tl;dr but I don't think I can elucidate a pithy summary of what I just said. Hopefully it made sense on the first go.
 
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Insomniac

Insomniac

𝔄 𝔲 𝔱 𝔦 𝔰 𝔪
May 21, 2021
1,358
I don't understand this big gripe SaSu has with the suicidal being more mentally ill than other groups. It doesn't take away from our pain, our experience is just as respectable, just as real. Mental illness is a very insidious form of pain that's gaining recognition nowadays.

Suicidals kill themselves because they're physically or mentally ill, or both, and that's it. Even doing it because you lost a partner can be thrown into the mentally ill basket as other people are able to build themselves up after that loss.

I accept a challenge here if anyone wants. I'm on sick leave today. Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.

are youbasking why they focus on trying to destroy us instead of improving the mental health system?

It's because we're fundamentally a nuisance to everyone else. Our very existence.

that's why.
 
É

Élégie

Student
Sep 24, 2019
143
I don't understand this big gripe SaSu has with the suicidal being more mentally ill than other groups. It doesn't take away from our pain, our experience is just as respectable, just as real. Mental illness is a very insidious form of pain that's gaining recognition nowadays.

Suicidals kill themselves because they're physically or mentally ill, or both, and that's it. Even doing it because you lost a partner can be thrown into the mentally ill basket as other people are able to build themselves up after that loss.

I accept a challenge here if anyone wants. I'm on sick leave today. Think of examples where suicide isn't because someone is physically or mentally ill.
What is your definition of 'mental illness'?
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,686
What is your definition of 'mental illness'?
A malfunctioning of the psyche that causes suffering: a pathology. For example, being temporally sad because your relative died is healthy functioning, never overcoming that sadness enough to function is chronic depression.
 
É

Élégie

Student
Sep 24, 2019
143
A malfunctioning of the psyche that causes suffering: a pathology. For example, being temporally sad because your relative died is healthy functioning, never overcoming that sadness enough to function is chronic depression.
So, do you agree with most of the DSM criteria for mental illnesses and disorders?
 
É

Élégie

Student
Sep 24, 2019
143
The point I was trying to make is that modern psychiatry has played a huge role in defining what constitutes mental illness. And it's mostly pseudoscience. A lot of behaviors, attitudes, personality traits and thought patterns that were once considered 'disordered', 'unsound' or 'irrational' are now deemed normal (and vice versa)… which shows the arbitrary nature of it all.
I don't agree with the way we tend to pathologize and medicalize almost every human problem, emotion and idiosyncrasy nowadays. Excluding obvious brain diseases (e.g. Alzheimer's, cerebral palsy, etc.), there are just too many grey areas when it comes to mental health.

However, I must admit that I have used the terms 'depression', 'body dysmorphia' and 'eating disorder' to describe my own problems before. Was it from years of conditioning or simply for convenience? Probably both. I'm not sure if I fully believe in those diagnoses anymore, but it was a quick way to let people know I was struggling without having to share my whole life story. What I think I should have said instead: 'I have a pessimistic worldview because (…)' or 'I have low self-esteem related to body image issues because (…)'. No need to put medical labels on those feelings.

A malfunctioning of the psyche that causes suffering

Definition of malfunction: 'a failure to function in a normal or satisfactory manner'… by what standards? Who gets to draw the line between what's normal/satisfactory and abnormal/unsatisfactory? It's easy to apply this concept to machinery, but it's a lot harder to apply it to the human psyche.

Also, you said in a previous post that wanting to reproduce is a sign of good health. Rounded Apathy said the same thing in her/his post. Do people who don't want children qualify as mentally ill?