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TheLoneWolf

TheLoneWolf

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I have followed this forum for a few years now and signed up a few months ago.

I'm not constantly suicidal but the last 7 years I haven't lived more than 2 months without having thoughts about ending my life because of chronic illnesses.

One thing is to deal with our own pain and suffering but it seems to me that many suicidal people also empathize with other people's pain and understand that life isn't always a fairytale story.

Somehow it's like we as humans have to believe in some kind of "fictional" story to keep going on. Most of what humans have created throughout history is some kind of fiction. It only exist because humans agree we believe in it, but is not part of nature.

My question is if you think suicidal people have a more realistic view of the world?
 
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T

timf

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There was a 1967 movie called Fitzwilly where Dick Van Dyke played a butler. In describing the woman he worked for he said, "If she leaves the house each morning as if she owned the whole world, it is because she still thinks she does".

Humans have a capacity to create a comfortable environment for themselves even if it means distorting reality. Those who come to see reality either seek it intentionally of fall into it through shattered illusions.

There is the trope of people jumping out of windows in the 1929 stack market crash. Often portrayed in cartoons, this captures a little of when our illusions suddenly fail us.

Those who seek reality intentionally or have it thrust upon them are faced with the task of finding comfort and happiness apart from delusions. Some people who consider suicide may lament the possibility of ever finding happiness in what can appear as and often is a cruel world.

In a way, it is almost like getting unplugged form the Matrix. The trick is to operate outside the artificial world or money, prestige, fame, popularity, and influence. In the real world, substance is more important than appearance. Relationships may only be built deeper with others who have similarly clear vision.
 
tiredplant777

tiredplant777

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I feel like in my experience it's both a yes an no. I have found myself far more aware of the reality of injustice and climate change. I feel like I don't have the same filters that other people do. Seeing other people's filters and denial blows my mind. I also feel that being depressed/suicidal is another end of the extreme where I am only feeling the reality of suffering, when reality also has love and peace and beauty. When I am suicidal I really can't feel those things, and I feel they are also very real.
 
Flippy

Flippy

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I think, quite possibly, yes, people who feel suicidal probably have a more accurate handle on the reality of existing in this world.

People will tell you all kinds of platitudes about "how the world is". Usually they are self serving and basically a sales pitch, to sell you a reality that serves them and prevents their bubble from being popped by the pin of reality. As for your "bubble" well they don't really care about that. It's "their" world and they don't want any inconvenient realities encroaching upon it.

I've heard the usual bullshit from people trying to belittle my experience, or invalidate it. I also have been quite furious to hear it happening to others.

Usually it will take the form of something along these lines..."Well you know, people who live in developing countries don't have the 'luxury' of being depressed, so they don't commit suicide because they just get on with it. So your problems are pathetic by comparison so you are being self indulgent. You don't have real problems like they do so, pull yourself together and stop being lazy!"

This sort of fantasy presented as fact, I find particularly irritating. You don't have to look for long to find images of scores of African people hanging lifeless by their necks. The fact that I've happened upon these images by accident shows that the evidence is there that the idea people less fortunate than you somehow just keep going is utter bullshit.

What would have happened if I was in their shoes? Well, I have no doubt that I would have met the same fate by now.

Most people living in their nice self affirming bubbles aren't aware of such realities. It's nicely filtered out, the world is wonderful, beautiful place to these people. It's full of nice Vacations, 70" TVs, Starbucks, malls, iPhones, IKEA, trendy cars and clothes, parties and self promoting on Facebook. Life is great, right until the harsh hand of reality unceremoniously picks them up and thrusts them into the freezing cold, stinking swamp of the real that the rest of us have been navigating for a good long while.

Well at least if their luck runs out.
 
tiredplant777

tiredplant777

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Flippy said:
I think, quite possibly, yes, people who feel suicidal probably have a more accurate handle on the reality of existing in this world.

People will tell you all kinds of platitudes about "how the world is". Usually they are self serving and basically a sales pitch, to sell you a reality that serves them and prevents their bubble from being popped by the pin of reality. As for your "bubble" well they don't really care about that. It's "their" world and they don't want any inconvenient realities encroaching upon it.

I've heard the usual bullshit from people trying to belittle my experience, or invalidate it. I also have been quite furious to hear it happening to others.

Usually it will take the form of something along these lines..."Well you know, people who live in developing countries don't have the 'luxury' of being depressed, so they don't commit suicide because they just get on with it. So your problems are pathetic by comparison so you are being self indulgent. You don't have real problems like they do so, pull yourself together and stop being lazy!"

This sort of fantasy presented as fact, I find particularly irritating. You don't have to look for long to find images of scores of African people hanging lifeless by their necks. The fact that I've happened upon these images by accident shows that the evidence is there that the idea people less fortunate than you somehow just keep going is utter bullshit.

What would have happened if I was in their shoes? Well, I have no doubt that I would have met the same fate by now.

Most people living in their nice self affirming bubbles aren't aware of such realities. It's nicely filtered out, the world is wonderful, beautiful place to these people. It's full of nice Vacations, 70" TVs, Starbucks, malls, iPhones, IKEA, trendy cars and clothes, parties and self promoting on Facebook. Life is great, right until the harsh hand of reality unceremoniously picks them up and thrusts them into the freezing cold, stinking swamp of the real that the rest of us have been navigating for a good long while.

Well at least if their luck runs out.
I don't like how people say these things about people in developing countries, because at least in my experience it's just not true. I've only been to Peru, but the poverty was devastating and there definitely was depression and mental health issues. The only difference is there they don't even have the recourses that exist in the West. There may be the factor that people are more inclined to connect and rely on each other in those countries, so more community might be helping, but yeah I saw a lot of suffering too. This was more in the city, I do hope that the communities that live more out in the jungle have better mental health.
 
N

noname223

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I think the more common question is whether depressed people have a more rational wordview.
I think for both it depends. Some people have only for a short time suicidal thoughts and some are glad when they survive their first suicide attempt. I am very cautious. I am collecting evidence to prove my worldview. For me the depressed me is more rational tbh and I am pretty sure. I can distract me in order to feel better, less depressed. But the situation does not change there are no viable solutions for my problems I am completely trapped. Now I am more depressed again and I see the distraction helped me for a short time. But it was not really rational.
However I think some depressed people are in a thinking fallacy. By far not everyone but some. For some this is only a depressed period they find happiness, medication or something else. You can read some goodbys in this forum who truly recovered.
There is no black or white in this question. I have met many therapists who were way too optimistic and I have met suicidal people who truly recovered.
I would recommend to be carefully and think trough this decision. Some have a more realistic worldview and some not.
 
FuneralCry

FuneralCry

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Yes, I think so. The reality is that this world is an depressing place with unlimited potential for suffering. Life is essentially pointless too all we are doing is waiting around to die. I think wanting to escape it is perfectly rational, and at least in my case it is. I think many non suicidal people are delusional in the way they see life.
 
Flippy

Flippy

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tiredplant777 said:
I don't like how people say these things about people in developing countries, because at least in my experience it's just not true. I've only been to Peru, but the poverty was devastating and there definitely was depression and mental health issues. The only difference is there they don't even have the recourses that exist in the West. There may be the factor that people are more inclined to connect and rely on each other in those countries, so more community might be helping, but yeah I saw a lot of suffering too. This was more in the city, I do hope that the communities that live more out in the jungle have better mental health.
The fantasy that people in developing countries are more resilient takes root because the majority of people in the west never witness the reality of people's lives in these countries. Often people are deeply religious and there's a belief that if you commit suicide you can't move on to the afterlife. It's a very common theme in various religions, particularly the abrahamic derived ones. What tends to happen, as was the case in fairly recent "western" history, is that the suicide is covered up for cultural reasons.

The truth is, that when people use this nonsense to try and guilt trip you and invalidate your reasons for feeling depressed, they can't offer any empirical evidence to back up their claims. If you are vulnerable or perhaps don't think so deeply about these things (not really a bad thing necessarily) then you may just accept the myth or even perpetuate it.

It relies on our fairly vague concept of poor people in poor and war torn countries.

Just thinking about what is happening in Afghanistan right now makes me so angry. If we (in the west) went in to this country to "liberate and save" these people then we should be absolutely fucking ashamed to have given up and gone home and let the very same "evil" take over once more.

But to most people, Afghanistan is just some fantasy that they will never experience, so might very well be a George Lucas movie happening in a galaxy far, far, away. I find this sort of thing deeply depressing and I'm powerless to do anything about it.

For all the normies out there. Try to picture running from Taliban death squads or having your rights taken away, if you are a girl or woman. Really try to picture that and not vomit into you triple-chocofrapalatte, next time you are in Starbucks. If you chug it down without the slightest urge to puke. I suggest that you are probably quite comfortable with the evil in this world, as long as it doesn't happen to you or people you care about of course.
 
Midgardsorm

Midgardsorm

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There was a famous poet/writter here in Brazil called Mario Quintana.

One of his famous quotes were:
"Happiness bestializes, only suffering humanizes people"

I always had depression, my life were full of misery. I'm from a third world country even thought Brazil is actually very wealthy in some way. Also I've been born in a middle class family. There were always food on the table and I always had decent medical care.
So I had plenty of opportunity for simply closing my eyes for the rest of the world and being happy, but I was not. I had to struggle with other things, bullying, lack of affection, chronical illness, social anxiety ... That left me depressed.

I find it funny when people say "You should be grateful, there is people suffering in Africa.". Yes, I know and I feel for them. But doesn't mean that only them have the right of being unhappy.

Even worse, it's the same thing about being poor. Rich people are also depressed.
Shouldn't we say to them: "You should be happy, I'm have the right of being sad because I'm poor, you're not."? - No, we don't. They suffer from other problems, some even suffer from the same problems that we do, that money cannot buy for them.

Then there was my father. He said to me once:
"I find it funny how people are depressed these days. I don't remember reading anything about depression in medieval times, when I grew up, depression were also not a major concern. This problem only happens now because people are becoming too lazy and don't know what it like to fight for their lives."

Huh? - Yeah, there is surely records of depression in medieval times, they're probably much fewer than nowadays. Also, a few years ago, when he grew up (1950, I think) Cold War were still ongoing, Brazil was in the midst of a dictatorship, there were a lot of internal conflicts here.
Why wasn't depression a thing? Well, most probably because anyone who were suffering from depression or other mental illness were DEAD.
It's the same thing as stating that Spartans were badasses because there were no nanism in Sparta. Yeah, because any baby that showed signs of genetic problems were killed as soon as they left the womb !

These problems are only becoming more apparent today because we are surviving, some of us without will to live. Want to eradicate mental illness? Put free N at the nearest local drugstore. There, no Mental illness.

So yes, the abundance of happiness kinda bestializes people. Since we are the ones who suffer, we can see through the haze of happiness. The fog that cover the normies thoughts so they can live their lives happily. It's necessary for them.
 
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Amumu

Amumu

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Flippy said:
If we (in the west) went in to this country to "liberate and save" these people

:pfff::pfff::pfff:

Let's give human rights to Afghans once again folks, so did W. Bush a few decades ago.
 
Flippy

Flippy

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Midgardsorm said:
There was a famous poet/writter here in Brazil called Mario Quintana.

One of his famous quotes were:
"Happiness bestializes, only suffering humanizes people"

I always had depression, my life were full of misery. I'm from a third world country even thought Brazil is actually very wealthy in some way. Also I've been born in a middle class family. There were always food on the table and I always had decent medical care.
So I had plenty of opportunity for simply closing my eyes for the rest of the world and being happy, but I was not. I had to struggle with other things, bullying, lack of affection, chronical illness, social anxiety ... That left me depressed.

I find it funny when people say "You should be grateful, there is people suffering in Africa.". Yes, I know and I feel for them. But doesn't mean that only them have the right of being unhappy.

Even worse, it's the same thing about being poor. Rich people are also depressed.
Shouldn't we say to them: "You should be happy, I'm have the right of being sad because I'm poor, you're not."? - No, we don't. They suffer from other problems, some even suffer from the same problems that we do, that money cannot buy for them.

Then there was my father. He said to me once:
"I find it funny how people are depressed these days. I don't remember reading anything about depression in medieval times, when I grew up, depression were also not a major concern. This problem only happens now because people are becoming too lazy and don't know what it like to fight for their lives."

Huh? - Yeah, there is surely records of depression in medieval times, they're probably much fewer than nowadays. Also, a few years ago, when he grew up (1950, I think) Cold War were still ongoing, Brazil was in the midst of a dictatorship, there were a lot of internal conflicts here.
Why wasn't depression a thing? Well, most probably because anyone who were suffering from depression or other mental illness were DEAD.
It's the same thing as stating that Spartans were badasses because there were no Mulibrey nanism in Sparta. Yeah, because any baby that showed signs of genetic problems were killed as soon as they left the womb !

These problems are only becoming more apparent today because we are surviving, some of us without will to live. Want to eradicate mental illness? Put free N at the nearest local drugstore. There, no Mental illness.

So yes, the abundance of happiness kinda bestializes people. Since we are the ones who suffer, we can see through the haze of happiness. The fog that cover the normies thoughts so they can live their lives happily. It's necessary for them.
"Happiness bestializes, only suffering humanizes people"

Oh boy, I love that, that one is getting added to the list of "normie stumping quotes". Absolutely puts it into a perfect nutshell. I mean, I don't have a problem with people being happy. But yeah, too much of a good thing can have an adverse effect on your perspective.

I too have encountered the old "people weren't depressed back in my day." Then proceed to talk about people they knew or knew of whose lives ended in catastrophe and they ultimately commited suicide. You only have to look at the suicide statistics to see that the rate of suicide has decreased quite dramatically in the last 70 or so years.

Have things gotten better? I don't think so, I don't think the needle has moved much. Things just look nicer than they used to. The real difference is that for a few people anti depressants have helped or at the very least they have been persuaded that they are feeling better. For the rest of us who have only limited success with psychiatric drugs and "therapies", or no success at all are left with a fairly binary choice; live with it or stop living.

The truth is, back in the "olden days" mentally ill or depressed people either ended up in asylums or pushing up daisies.

We have apparently made progress towards helping people with depression and mental illness. But the truth is, unless you go cartwheeling down the street screaming "I'm cured" after the first pill or limp wristed intervention, no one wants to expend any further effort. If they do, you must debase yourself enough for them to feel superior.
 
Y

YourNeighbor

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No, of course not. Suicidal people are the overwhelming minority of people. By definition the perspective of those who want to ctb is not "the most realistic" view of the world, whatever that means. It's realistic for very few people.
 
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WinterIsComing

WinterIsComing

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What do "heal each other in community" means?...in Peru families make sometimes chicken parties to collect money (like a crowdfunding for causes) or raffles sometimes or the extended family:uncles, grandfathers can help.
 
No_Comply

No_Comply

"It's my escape, and that's nice to have"
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I suppose when you become suicidal you loose that optimistic filter in which you analyse and view everything. This in turn allows you to see things in a much more raw/truer lens though it's definitely a more pessimistic outlook, whether its more realistic or more doom and gloom, i don't know.

It's still probably somewhat more genuine than those living with the happy-upbeat filter on 24/7.
 
E

everydayiloveyou

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I don't think we have a more realistic view, just an alternative one.

I feel like it's important to remember that in some people, their mental illness makes them think irrationally about certain things. This alters their view on the world, just like how people who are privileged have an irrational view on things. It's a warped view shaped by troubled experiences and the thought processes used to rationalize those experiences. It's not an objective or realistic one.

It's like how a supermodel or otherwise very attractive person may go around saying that looks don't matter, and how people don't treat them any differently for their looks. That's irrational and dense. It's assuming that everyone has the same experiences as them, and it's willfully ignorant of people's experiences of being mistreated for their looks.

But an attractive person with body dysmorphia might say the complete opposite -- that all their problems, even their little ones, stem back to their looks, even though their reasoning is flawed. For example, they may be rude and overstep boundaries by mentioning things people need to "work on." Or they are very depressing and reserved to be around, so they have a hard time making friends. They will then reason that all their problems are due to being ugly, that they are having a realistic view of the world, even though the actual reality (that looks play a factor, but ultimately that they are attractive enough that its not devastating) is really far from their perception.
 
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deflationary

deflationary

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In the limited sense of not regarding life as an inherently good thing, yes. But misery comes with its own biases. On average I doubt there's much of a difference between suicidal and non-suicidal people in how realistic they are. Pretty much everyone's engaged in motivated reasoning.
 
Makko

Makko

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Flippy said:
If we (in the west) went in to this country to "liberate and save" these people
They went into this country to strike back at some terrorists. Which was exactly according to plan. The grand strategy is getting the US to invade muslim countries and destroy existing secular power structures. When the US inevitably must withdraw, the power vacuum fills with islamism. Check out "The management of savagery". Interesting read.
 
Flippy

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Makko said:
They went into this country to strike back at some terrorists. Which was exactly according to plan. The grand strategy is getting the US to invade muslim countries and destroy existing secular power structures. When the US inevitably must withdraw, the power vacuum fills with islamism. Check out "The management of savagery". Interesting read.
Yeah I do feel that the US and the UK invading Afghanistan was entirely self serving but "sold" to us (at least in the UK) as an opportunity to bring democracy and liberty to people living under the iron fist of the Taliban. I mean personally, I never thought that those motives were genuine. But if I raised objections to invading Afghanistan, that was the usual cookie cutter response I received from your average person. As if I would object to people having liberty and freedom.

A few weeks ago, as the Taliban started to recapture the country, the news channels were all talking about it as if it were a simple change of management and that this was the "new improved" cuddly version of the Taliban. The fact that they did so unopposed makes a mockery of the justification of being there in the first place.

All that death, destruction and pain only to end up right back at the point of origin. Now there will be millions of girls and women and a fair few men and boys terrified and at risk. No western "white knight" swooping in this time.
 
UseItOrLoseIt

UseItOrLoseIt

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As always, I'll stand on the safe side of relativism and probably get lost along the way...

Real is what you get. When life gives you lemons, you make a lemonade. When life gives you rotten lemons, you make a lemonade.
The only practical difference between a fresh lemon and a putrid lemon is the quality of the lemonade.
Imagine drinking fresh lemonade all the time. You would replace the sun with a lemon soon enough.
Rancid lemonade, on the other hand, is more of an acquired taste, it's not served in any locale in the world and the sun actually makes it worse.

Real is what you get and "real" won't ever stray too much from the raw material.

Either every perspective is real, or none of them is. I choose the former because denying someone's POV is akin to denying his experiences. And each and every one of us carries years and years of those. A whole lifetime of watching our dreams being squashed into a juicy delight, or a horrible muck.
 
Mr2005

Mr2005

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Suicidal or not I don't think most people give a damn unless it effects them. If it does then yeah the worlds evil
 
hotelbeneathground

hotelbeneathground

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UseItOrLoseIt said:
Real is what you get and "real" won't ever stray too much from the raw material.

Either every perspective is real, or none of them is. I choose the former because denying someone's POV is akin to denying his experiences. And each and every one of us carries years and years of those. A whole lifetime of watching our dreams being squashed into a juicy delight, or a horrible muck.

I'm not aware of any non-religious optimist in human history who was/is considered wise
 
meetapple

meetapple

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The psychological ”sadder but wiser” theory goes that people who are depressed see the word more realistically. This makes sense on its face. However, I just read about a study that indicated this was not true. In an experiment, people were made to feel disgusted, sad, or neutral by showing video clips. Then they were given the option of taking a small sum of money right away or a larger sum of money later. Taking the small sum would only be rational if there was an abnormally high interest rate. The depressed people were more likely to take the smaller sum right away. So they didn’t see things necessarily more realistically.
 
Ms.Anthrope

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TheLoneWolf said:
I have followed this forum for a few years now and signed up a few months ago.

I'm not constantly suicidal but the last 7 years I haven't lived more than 2 months without having thoughts about ending my life because of chronic illnesses.

One thing is to deal with our own pain and suffering but it seems to me that many suicidal people also empathize with other people's pain and understand that life isn't always a fairytale story.

Somehow it's like we as humans have to believe in some kind of "fictional" story to keep going on. Most of what humans have created throughout history is some kind of fiction. It only exist because humans agree we believe in it, but is not part of nature.

My question is if you think suicidal people have a more realistic view of the world?
I think there are at least two mutually exclusive aspects to this question: 1) individual perception, and 2) emotional regulation/coping skills.

I don't believe that suicidal people are suicidal because they view the world through any particular lense (1), such as a "realistic worldview." I think they're suicidal because they currently lack the emotional capacity or capability to deal with whatever reality they happen to see (2), realistic or not. @everydayiloveyou gave a great example of this above, how someone can be suicidal for both realistic and unrealistic reasons.
 
UseItOrLoseIt

UseItOrLoseIt

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hotelbeneathground said:
I'm not aware of any non-religious optimist in human history who was/is considered wise
A philosophy of optimism is redundant. There's no self-help book for people who don't need help and there's no trying to make the pieces fit from people who manage to keep it together. Who needs wisdom when you can be happy?
 
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TheLoneWolf

TheLoneWolf

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meetapple said:
The psychological ”sadder but wiser” theory goes that people who are depressed see the word more realistically. This makes sense on its face. However, I just read about a study that indicated this was not true. In an experiment, people were made to feel disgusted, sad, or neutral by showing video clips. Then they were given the option of taking a small sum of money right away or a larger sum of money later. Taking the small sum would only be rational if there was an abnormally high interest rate. The depressed people were more likely to take the smaller sum right away. So they didn’t see things necessarily more realistically.

In my opinion money is the classic example of a "fictional story" many people believe in. In reality it's just paper/coins or numbers in a database.

If you have a million on your bank account it doesn't magically brings you happiness. You might not have to worry about your financial situation and you can buy something that gives temporary joy. But It doesn't solve all problems or cure your illness.
 
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Celerity

Celerity

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YourNeighbor said:
No, of course not. Suicidal people are the overwhelming minority of people. By definition the perspective of those who want to ctb is not "the most realistic" view of the world, whatever that means. It's realistic for very few people.
Why must the majority view be the most rational? Have you heard of the depressive realism theory? If so, what do you think about it?

I don’t think suicidal people are necessarily “more rational” full stop, but I think a lot of us in the long haul do see some things more clearly than the non-suicidal - particularly just how raw of a deal life can be for everybody. I think that’s simply because it takes experience to understand suffering. You can only empathize to a point with an intellectual understanding.

There are experiences and ideas that I would never, ever have been able to understand if I did not get to the bleak points I have. I used to be healthier. I used to be smarter. I had better chances at a much brighter future. Even with all that, I can’t foresee that person (that “better” me) ever really seeing the sides of life that I have. Not saying that’s a bad thing; maybe it’s good not to know. It just is what it is.
 
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YourNeighbor

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Celerity said:
Why must the majority view be the most rational? Have you heard of the depressive realism theory? If so, what do you think about it?

I don’t think suicidal people are necessarily “more rational” full stop, but I think a lot of us in the long haul do see some things more clearly than the non-suicidal - particularly just how raw of a deal life can be for everybody. I think that’s simply because it takes experience to understand suffering. You can only empathize to a point with an intellectual understanding.

There are experiences and ideas that I would never, ever have been able to understand if I did not get to the bleak points I have. I used to be healthier. I used to be smarter. I had better chances at a much brighter future. Even with all that, I can’t foresee that person (that “better” me) ever really seeing the sides of life that I have. Not saying that’s a bad thing; maybe it’s good not to know. It just is what it is.
The original question wasn't about rationality, but about what is the more realistic view of the world (again, whatever that means). Fundamentally, it's a nonsensical question, but the answer cannot be that suicidal people have a more "realistic" view of the world than others. At best it's just as valid a view, at worst it's very distorted because of the very rare circumstances that would drive a person to such a point of despair that they view ctb as the only way out. In any case, the view is not *more* realistic.

And what is rational is subjective, and again we see that for the overwhelming majority, being suicidal is irrational--living is worth more than dying. So one can't say as a general matter that suicidal people have a more rational view of the world than people who aren't. It's a nonsensical comparison. It's like asking whether buying a minivan is more rational than buying a truck. Depends on who is doing the buying.
 
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