shinitai

shinitai

Member
Jun 28, 2018
25
"It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem" seems like the mindset everyone thinks suicidal people are in. Even after months and months of planning and years of contemplation that many people who successfully CTB undertake, outsiders will still say that "oh he wasn't thinking straight" or "this could've been easily avoided" or even "If I had done something to help, he wouldn't have done it", as if the person has/had no capability of any rational thought. What do you think?
 
J

JustDie

Member
Jun 18, 2018
48
It can be and it can also not be. Most suicides that are unplanned and so are on impulse are probably irrational however the ones that are planned and executed good enough are probably not on impulse and requires suffering beforehand to come to the logical decision that suicide is the only way out.
 
A

Awdsrox

New Member
Jun 26, 2018
2
My suicidal thoughts are lost in my pride , I’ve made mistakes that have fucked me over and I have to stop myself from slipping further .

Flimsy argument yah but ... it’s my worlds

I’ve got no credibility though , I’m still here and I haven’t taken the plung.
 
shinitai

shinitai

Member
Jun 28, 2018
25
It can be and it can also not be. Most suicides that are unplanned and so are on impulse are probably irrational however the ones that are planned and executed good enough are probably not on impulse and requires suffering beforehand to come to the logical decision that suicide is the only way out.
I agree about unplanned suicides. However, people will still argue that mental illness affects your ability to come to the conclusion that suicide is the only way out and that you aren't capable to thinking for yourself. It just kind of pisses me off when people say that haha
 
Fylobatica

Fylobatica

Inactive
Apr 1, 2018
365
I've heard about some people who wanted to CTB because they've always felt like life is not enough and there should be definitely more to existence than this. They're basically disappointed from human experience as a whole, regardless of their personal situation. This could fit in the label 'rational suicide'
 
J

JustDie

Member
Jun 18, 2018
48
I agree about unplanned suicides. However, people will still argue that mental illness affects your ability to come to the conclusion that suicide is the only way out and that you aren't capable to thinking for yourself. It just kind of pisses me off when people say that haha
Same too. That's probably the mindset the people have when someone has attempted suicide and can't make their own sane rational decisions. I disagree with that, but logically it does sound true. I can't debunk it though. All I can say is that is suicide is the rational decision for some people instead of continuing to live. There's just times where nothing is able to be fix and living is shit, which is most of people on this forum is at.
Depression I guess also can affect mental health mindset for making choices, as this can be seen with people start to be lazy and don't care about health, etc etc. I also see it as a opening to a whole other world of thought - that life is fucking SHIT . People cannot experience what they haven't been through, and this is why people can't grasp the concept that life can be fucking shit for other people and give bullshit advice and support
 
Definitelyworried

Definitelyworried

Member
Jun 19, 2018
555
This is a really interesting question and post.
And there might not be a definitive answer to this. Especially depends on who you ask.
In order to find out if suicide is a rational thing or not, we have to be certain about the afterlife or lack thereof.
And again we are talking about the unknown.
I think if there is no afterlife, suicide is very rational.
But if there is a hell, suicide is very irrational.
Maybe what I'm saying is not rational, but I am a very confused person.
Interesting question.
 
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dwight

dwight

-
Jun 30, 2018
28
us real people know those ignorant ass bitches in hospitals, cops, etc etc. is low key all about that money. of course for the pissy public's eye's sake they gonna be all like: "oh, we care about you, blah blah"--

bitch no.
54839-nobitch_final.gif


It's low key about the money.

speak the truth Mary! SPEAK IT!
ohno.gif


https:/youtu.be/2DBrHKVWkJs?t=3m58s
put it in your url and hear the truth.
 
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EternalSanction

EternalSanction

-
Jun 7, 2018
252
What does define rationality?
Most decisions would be called rational if they are based on reasonable, logical arguments.
Then we get to the critical part: for some people it's rational to do everything they can to protect their life. It may be their number one priority. For some others though, they may feel like there is nothing worth living for and pain is outweighing joy (which is highly subjective and indebatable). In this case they would apply a simple "cost-benefit analysis" if you wanna call it like that. Therefore you could argue that it is indeed rational.
But there are countless valid views on this issue and I'm certain there is no definite/easy truth - like most times in life.
 
EternalSanction

EternalSanction

-
Jun 7, 2018
252
there is none because there is NO argument. It's our bodies and we do with it what the hell we want end of story. It's no contest. And those trying to have an argument, well, we know what side your ass is on! you part time hospital assistance.
Well said
 
shinitai

shinitai

Member
Jun 28, 2018
25
What does define rationality?
Most decisions would be called rational if they are based on reasonable, logical arguments.
Then we get to the critical part: for some people it's rational to do everything they can to protect their life. It may be their number one priority. For some others though, they may feel like there is nothing worth living for and pain is outweighing joy (which is highly subjective and indebatable). In this case they would apply a simple "cost-benefit analysis" if you wanna call it like that. Therefore you could argue that it is indeed rational.
But there are countless valid views on this issue and I'm certain there is no definite/easy truth - like most times in life.
That is true. There are many many people who's circumstances may "justify" or "explain" a suicide- I find that to be a very one-sided explanation and reasoning, but it's one that most people who have traditional moral compasses can understand. What I don't think they can grasp is the idea that some people do not hold the concept of life and living to a high degree. Not specifically as a "pain outweighing joy" kind of way, but just a this life is so unsatisfactory, the only place I see myself in the future is dead, because it is my choice and I would rather see myself dead. That wouldn't be considered a logical foundation of thought for most lawful citizens, but that doesn't mean it isn't inherently logical and, therefore, rational. I'm Glad that this forum exists, because in real life nobody would ever take this question seriously haha
 
accidentaldeath

accidentaldeath

Student
May 29, 2018
107
It can be and it can also not be. Most suicides that are unplanned and so are on impulse are probably irrational however the ones that are planned and executed good enough are probably not on impulse and requires suffering beforehand to come to the logical decision that suicide is the only way out.

That's the point, you can't compare a person which has been planning it for months after years of suffering with the person which jumps in front of a train because he just lost his gf yesterday.
 
RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Global Mod
Jun 12, 2018
1,542
I think it is in my case. I've made the conscious decision to ctb back in august 2017. I was looking for the right method since then and I finally found one. My wish to die was constant during that last year and I stand with my decision. I have no hope and I want to leave, which is gonna happen soon. I also have no regrets. I'm glad it will be over very soon.
 
S

Sternum

Student
May 12, 2018
121
I think it is in my case. I've made the conscious decision to ctb back in august 2017. I was looking for the right method since then and I finally found one. My wish to die was constant during that last year and I stand with my decision. I have no hope and I want to leave, which is gonna happen soon. I also have no regrets. I'm glad it will be over very soon.
That’s a mindset I would like to have. I tend to worry and regret at baseline, but you sound like you are at peace.
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
The "he was crazy" argument is just bullshit produced by lazy minds. I don't even want to die because of my depression, that just reinforces my main reason which is the undeniable fact that physical human life (there could be a spirit world imo, there is good NDE data to support it, like this case or children who remember past lives) is a game full of hardship and pain that I don't want to play because it's not fun anymore for me. There's my rational argument: the rules of this Universe suck and don't benefit me in the long-run, therefore I don't want to be a part of it. You could be born in a random poor family in Africa, have almost nothing to eat, get a disease that slowly kills you and makes you live in full physical pain, have to face violence everyday from parents and other people from your tribe. Is life worth living for that person? Is that person crazy for wanting to kill himself? Or just a fucking human being who doesn't want to feel pain?
 
Susannah

Susannah

Arcanist
Jul 2, 2018
454
Suicide for me is the last way "out", my very own choice. It comforts me to know this private "escape route".
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
You know what's funny? Tell a pro lifer you want to kill yourself because you actually feel pain and he'll laugh at you and tell you it's nothing it will pass. Tell him you want to die for philosophical reasons and he'll laugh even louder and call you immature and not a practical person. these idiots are biased, you can't reason with them. They'll think life is worth living no matter what because of their indoctrination.
 
N

NeedPeace

Member
Jun 19, 2018
5
It can be both. But whether it's rational or not, it's a personal decision, in my view, one that everyone should have. Just like the right to live should include a right to die. No one else owns your life nor gets to decide if it's right for you or not to die at any given time. For other people it will almost always be seen as an irrational choice, but it is your choice after all. No matter how permanent or temporary the pain someone is going through may be, it is natural to want to stop suffering. So if the person sees suicide as a rational way to end it, then it's their decision. I think it's more irrational for other people to think suicide is "selfish", when they can never know how a person is actually feeling. It is more selfish to expect someone to live at the expense of their own suffering.
 
shattered dreams

shattered dreams

Student
Jun 5, 2018
134
A rational suicide is taking your life because of a illness that causes severe unrelievable pain that is incurable. The pain can be either physical or mental. An irrational suicide is taking your life because of a temporary problem that will go away in time. I suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome and chronic pancreatitis. My suicide is definitely rational, and I would even qualify for assisted suicide in Belgium.
 
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Imaginos

Imaginos

Full-time layabout
Apr 7, 2018
633
Of course. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's the only rational choice of action available once you can stomach taking an honest, hard look at this carnival of horrors we all collectively have the great misfortune of finding ourselves in. Living for the sake of living is pure masochism and serves only to prolongs life's hardships, whereas death puts an end to them for good. Most people gaslight themselves to think otherwise, but what else would you expect from what amounts to nothing more than literal cult members at the end of the day? Spouting brainless dogma & empty cliches that have been drilled into their worn out heads from day one both by our vile biology & vapid cultural myths. Unable, or unwilling, to see the bigger picture. Propping up the "life is great" myth is just another form of terror management. Therefore suicide, being a distinct threat to that myth, is turned on its head and made to seem irrational, by simply saying that it is and repeating it ad nauseam. It's such a pathetic form of propaganda really, since it's main function is to simply reinforce the absurd beliefs of the people manufacturing it in the first place. Saying it over & over, as if to convince themselves of what, quite obviously, just isn't true. Suicide is hard, it's scary and, worst of all, it makes life look bad for everyone else who still foolishly wishes to participate in it. The human animal is frightened & confused in the face of suicide as it tears away the gaudy facades & monuments that have been erected to shield ourselves, ineffectively I might add, from what lies beneath it all. The emptiness, the futility, the senseless pain with no redemption to be found at the end of it. That stuff is really, really hard to look at & experience naked with no illusions. So we cover it up, we obfuscate it, we dress it up in pretty clothes. Anything to disguise that unbearable hardship. Anything to make it seem like it's not so, that it isn't there. Those who jeopardize the charade are, naturally, demonized and the associated ideas dragged through the muck. It's all borne from fear, though. Like a scared animal lashing out when it thinks its in danger. A pitiable state of affairs, to be sure.

It is our birth, in fact, that we must attend to if we want to extirpate the evil at its source. We take a stand against death, against what must come; birth, a much more irreparable event, we leave to one side, pay little or no attention to it: to each man it appears as far in the past as the world's first moment. Only a man who plans to suppress himself reaches back that far; it seems he cannot forget the unnameable mechanism of procreation and that he tries, by a retrospective horror, to annihilate the very seed from which he has sprung.

Emil Cioran, The Fall Into Time

1469641129-emilcioran5177253822-a668b15f9a-zpsfbf62be3.jpg
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
Of course. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's the only rational choice of action available once you can stomach taking an honest, hard look at this carnival of horrors we all collectively have the great misfortune of finding ourselves in. Living for the sake of living is pure masochism and serves only to prolongs life's hardships, whereas death puts an end to them for good. Most people gaslight themselves to think otherwise, but what else would you expect from what amounts to nothing more than literal cult members at the end of the day? Spouting brainless dogma & empty cliches that have been drilled into their worn out heads from day one both by our vile biology & vapid cultural myths. Unable, or unwilling, to see the bigger picture. Propping up the "life is great" myth is just another form of terror management. Therefore suicide, being a distinct threat to that myth, is turned on its head and made to seem irrational, by simply saying that it is and repeating it ad nauseam. It's such a pathetic form of propaganda really, since it's main function is to simply reinforce the absurd beliefs of the people manufacturing it in the first place. Saying it over & over, as if to convince themselves of what, quite obviously, just isn't true. Suicide is hard, it's scary and, worst of all, it makes life look bad for everyone else who still foolishly wishes to participate in it. The human animal is frightened & confused in the face of suicide as it tears away the gaudy facades & monuments that have been erected to shield ourselves, ineffectively I might add, from what lies beneath it all. The emptiness, the futility, the senseless pain with no redemption to be found at the end of it. That stuff is really, really hard to look at & experience naked with no illusions. So we cover it up, we obfuscate it, we dress it up in pretty clothes. Anything to disguise that unbearable hardship. Anything to make it seem like it's not so, that it isn't there. Those who jeopardize the charade are, naturally, demonized and the associated ideas dragged through the muck. It's all borne from fear, though. Like a scared animal lashing out when it thinks its in danger. A pitiable state of affairs, to be sure.

Exactly. That's what I believe too. Some of us don't want to die because of the hypothetical chemical imbalance in the brain bullshit theory supported by little evidence, some of us want to die because our rational mind doesn't see the point in extending this human experience if the benefits you would get from it are outnumbered by the disadvantages.
 
M

MAIO

Elementalist
Apr 8, 2018
838
"It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem" seems like the mindset everyone thinks suicidal people are in. Even after months and months of planning and years of contemplation that many people who successfully CTB undertake, outsiders will still say that "oh he wasn't thinking straight" or "this could've been easily avoided" or even "If I had done something to help, he wouldn't have done it", as if the person has/had no capability of any rational thought. What do you think?

How many irrational descions do you make on a daily basis? I know some of the same people who think irrational descions have been the best descions they have ever made. If anything infatuation clouds your judgment darastically far more than depression. People say suicide is never rational due to propganda, the assunption life is always worth it etc. The very notion that you can determine what is always the rational choice for yourself yet alone someone else is quite absurd as you only have a keyhole of information. You never even access to all information or can really even consitently make the best descion.
 
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M

millefeui

-
Mar 31, 2018
1,036
Considering how messed up this world is, wishing for death is a rational decision at its finest. Unless you got really, really lucky and was born pretty, rich and healthy and a late boomer on top of that (so you look young for longer), not wanting death is what doesn't seem rational to me.

That said, whether suicide is rational or emotional, it makes no difference to me. I want death.
 
E

Eric Kalteux

Member
May 15, 2018
15
I will defend the rationality of suicide as it is a preference choice, and I believe that all preference choices are rational because the agent setting the standard by which the decision will be made is the same agent that will weigh the choice over that standard. For example, if someone who likes vanilla and dislikes chocolate chooses vanilla over chocolate - that is rational. It’s a preference choice. Vice Versa, if someone who prefers chocolate chooses that, then that’s rational.

The only difference is that with suicide there is an unknown. Above I presumed that the consumers had both had vanilla and chocolate previously. Now, let’s say they have never before had strawberry. The person who likes vanilla might choose to forego the chance to try a new flavor because they just like vanilla. But that same person might choose strawberry if the only other option was chocolate. Suicidal people are just those people. We just don’t like life; so we prefer to take the risk and go for the unknown rather than stick with the only other option that we know to be to our disliking.

In sum, suicide is something that some people prefer. It’s the same as turning off the TV if you can’t find anything enjoyable on any of the channels - would anyone think that such a preference choice is irrational? Then, why would suicide be irrational? Choosing to live is also rational because that choice is made by someone who prefers it. The fact that BOTH choosing to live or choosing to die is rational can actually make sense because different people prefer different things.
 
Rocky M

Rocky M

I'm A Monster
Jun 20, 2018
213
You know what's funny? Tell a pro lifer you want to kill yourself because you actually feel pain and he'll laugh at you and tell you it's nothing it will pass. Tell him you want to die for philosophical reasons and he'll laugh even louder and call you immature and not a practical person. these idiots are biased, you can't reason with them. They'll think life is worth living no matter what because of their indoctrination.
I was thinking the same thing!