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EricRoche

EricRoche

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Apr 7, 2018
75
I used to be in the middle leaning towards having negative views of school shooters "How could they kill innocent people no matter the circumstance", now after having gone through so much shit from society I have gained much more empathy for them.

Society has this rosy view about "innocent civilians" that IMO is so flawed. There doesn't seem to be room for a spectrum of "goodness and badness" both on the murderers and civilians side. I wonder what you think about this.
 
EricRoche

EricRoche

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Apr 7, 2018
75
When I see a school shooting I cheer the shooter on. I don't care about dead innocent people. In my experience most people are scumbags.

I'm sure not literally but in your mind.

My experience however is that the vast majority of people are NOT open to that idea. I've had some pretty heated discussions with my former classmates about that. People look at me in shock for even suggesting that.
 
Tiburcio

Tiburcio

Voluntary deletion.
May 9, 2018
1,573
I can't avoid thinking every person is shit. But unfortunately one day a really innocent person will be killed. One of them who are really good and doesn't deserve it. If his friends were so good as him, they will be devastated causing unnecessary suffering.

This probably will never happen, almost every person is a complete asshole. But the chances make me worried.
 
Fylobatica

Fylobatica

Inactive
Apr 1, 2018
365
I've read a lot about school shooters fandoms, especially those Tumblr users devoted to glorify Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold (Columbine). But nobody apparently condones what they did. I mean, this defies all the statistics. Thousands of people jump on the serial killer devotional train but they dissociate from their final act, without which they wouldn't be known.

Somebody's obviously lying
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

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Jun 17, 2018
1,364
I think killing random people that have nothing to do with you, just for the sake of making yourself feel powerful, worthy, the apex predator whatever after being a victim is immoral, megalomaniacal, and outrageous. There are better ways to get your revenge.
 
EricRoche

EricRoche

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Apr 7, 2018
75
I think killing random people that have nothing to do with you, just for the sake of making yourself feel powerful, worthy, the apex predator whatever after being a victim is immoral, megalomaniacal, and outrageous. There are better ways to get your revenge.

But the problem I have with people who are against people who take revenge is they rarely acknowledge that the world fucks you over even if you're good.

These are probably the same people who say "Life is unfair" then turn around and condemn people for playing 'unfair' by killing someone else in revenge.
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

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Jun 17, 2018
1,364
But the problem I have with people who are against people who take revenge is they rarely acknowledge that the world fucks you over even if you're good.

These are probably the same people who say "Life is unfair" then turn around and condemn people for playing 'unfair' by killing someone else in revenge.

If they would limit themselves to only kill their bullies, I wouldn't really care, because if you (the bully) are tough and cocky enough to fuck with someone, then you should be tough and cocky enough to assume a counterattack from your victim and you have only yourself to to blame for it.
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

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Jun 17, 2018
1,364
I think the intention of the victim is usually to demonstrate that they can be just as privileged and dominant as the their classmates who are treated better and occupy a higher position in their class social hierarchy.
 
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EricRoche

EricRoche

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Apr 7, 2018
75
I just can't bring myself to feel any empathy for a bully getting killed when I was a victim of bullying myself. When you touch someone then it's not about morality anymore, it's survival of the fittest.

I agree with you mate. This idea of a bully "NO ONE deserved to be killed" IMO is simply false. There's a spectrum for good and bad behaviour
 
M

Michel Angelo

Member
Jul 5, 2018
46
On such topics, context really determines whether it is ethically justified or not. Was the IRA justified a few decades back?

Or - let's say Gaza, or in the West Bank. Now obviously every person's situation is different, but if my house was bulldozed by Israeli settlers, then protected by Israeli military, how I'd view killing a few Israeli soldiers as a desparate act of defiance would be very different than how Israel would see the situation etc.

Typically these happen along lines of either revenge or for a higher goal - usually for some political goal or ultimate "good."

Now, if one is an antinatalist or views human life in the negative, the shooter is essentially preventing that person from having any further children, and their children's children, etc. So in that light, s/he's a savior. Though typically I do my own thing with politics, and since there's no ultimate right in such I view it as a negative to take other lives via school shootings, etc. Although I do envy the authenticity of it, depending on the person and why they are doing it.
 
S

Sternum

Student
May 12, 2018
121
I dislike the act of violence. I feel bad for people who get shot, and I feel bad for the shooter that feels so much angst that leads them to such an act. What I really can’t condone is people chiming in with their insight on why the ’good’ is good and the ‘bad’ is bad. Somehow, self-righteous people with a holier-than-thou attitude are always on the side that is ‘good.’

The comedian Norm Macdonald recently sent a tweet that I think is so insightful:
The idiot sees the world as good vs evil, the cynic sees the world as evil vs evil. The truth that no one seems able to see is that the world is, and always has been, a battle of good vs good.

What person doesn’t think he side is the ‘right’ side? Again, I don’t agree with violence, but we really don’t know the experience of the shooters who are pushed to the brink. I suspect the shooters have often had some pretty bad things happen to them. It is sad to me that so many people interpret the world through a lens of hatred toward each other (hating the shooter, hating the victims, hating the gun manufacturers, hating the politicians who don’t outlaw guns in the U.S., hating the voters who support politicians who don’t outlaw guns, hating people who think the shooter is wrong, hating people who won’t immediately say the shooter should burn in eternity).This analysis could be applied to pretty much every political hot-button issue. It seems many people find value or identity in their group hating the ‘right’ people. It’s almost seems like the litmus test of how good a person you are is how much you are willing to hate. I don’t believe in god, but I will say that Jesus had some pretty wonderful views on loving your neighbor and your enemy. If there was a solution to the hell of existence, it would be somewhere in the realm of love. I don’t practice this effectively, but I wish I did.
 
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M

Michel Angelo

Member
Jul 5, 2018
46
I dislike the act of violence. I feel bad for people who get shot, and I feel bad for the shooter that feels so much angst that leads them to such an act. What I really can’t condone is people chiming in with their insight on why the ’good’ is good and the ‘bad’ is bad. Somehow, self-righteous people with a holier-than-thou attitude are always on the side that is ‘good.’

The comedian Norm Macdonald recently sent a tweet that I think is so insightful:
The idiot sees the world as good vs evil, the cynic sees the world as evil vs evil. The truth that no one seems able to see is that the world is, and always has been, a battle of good vs good.

What person doesn’t think he side is the ‘right’ side? Again, I don’t agree with violence, but we really don’t know the experience of the shooters who are pushed to the brink. I suspect the shooters have often had some pretty bad things happen to them. It is sad to me that so many people interpret the world through a lens of hatred toward each other (hating the shooter, hating the victims, hating the gun manufacturers, hating the politicians who don’t outlaw guns in the U.S., hating the voters who support politicians who don’t outlaw guns, hating people who think the shooter is wrong, hating people who won’t immediately say the shooter should burn in eternity).This analysis could be applied to pretty much every political hot-button issue. It seems many people find value or identity in their group hating the ‘right’ people. It’s almost seems like the litmus test of how good a person you are is how much you are willing to hate. I don’t believe in god, but I will say that Jesus had some pretty wonderful views on loving your neighbor and your enemy. If there was a solution to the hell of existence, it would be somewhere in the realm of love. I don’t practice this effectively, but I wish I did.


Again, "right" is subjective, thereby extrarational - it relies on assumptions that aren't objective, and thereby there really isn't a right in any real sense of the word - only what most people agree with, what the churches say, philosophers say, etc. The closest I've found to "right" in any objective sense is Kant's general deontological framework, later copied by Dworkin in his veil of ignorance, which is pretty much a rehashed version of the golden rule. Still, that relies on certain assumptions of what "the good" is, whether humanity should continue for example. Once you get outside those bounds, then it all falls apart, and basically comes down to an argument over which instinctual / emotional drives win out in the long run. ie, you like black, i like yellow, there's really no way of actually proving which is better, unless you apply some standard upon them, ie which is preferred by a larger percentage of people, which is more useful for certain tasks, etc. Once you put it in context - it's purpose, what it's used for - then comparing and judging becomes easy.

On extremely basic assumptions, such as whether humanity should continue, there's near universal agreement, so in most conversations people take that as a given - the "well being of the body politic) and such. However - and as was talked about in the first posting of this thread - it really depends on how you look at things.

As some of you may know, Every Cradle is a Grave, perhaps life on this earth is Hell, and we're the damned ones for being borne - the lucky ones being those who weren't. From that perspective, mass murderers are Saints.

Now when it comes to personal ethics, I generally don't support violence against others either, since that assumes I know what "the good" is, and though probably much more educated than most humans my arrogance hasn't risen to that level - yet. I sure wish america followed the same path, you know - not invading other countries and killing 1/2 a million people, which lead to the creation of ISIS, etc. etc. The worst part about the Florida shooting a few months back was the amount of air time given to it - and considering these were daily occurences in Iraq ten years ago, it's fucking disgusting that we tolerate shit like that, as long as it isn't in our backyard.
 
S

Sternum

Student
May 12, 2018
121
Love is a strong word as it is hate. Loving everybody 24/7 would be exhausting and mostly fake, just a special kind of lobotomy to maintain social order.

"Respect" would be much better.

Hate is a strong word on the side of negative. Love is a strong word on the side of positive. Respect is a less strong word on the side of positive. there are thousands of words that serve as a variant and degree on the side of negative or positive. Subjectively descriptive words in the context of ‘good’ or ‘bad’ just seem like a person is saying good vs bad (or preferable vs non-preferable depending on the goal outside of a moral context), but not actually saying more about the topic, rather trying to out-sophisticate the next person who used another word. I don’t care what word is used. My point is that no individual has more access to moral truth, just like no individual has more access to truth about a supernatural existence, and certainly those in the contest of being the ‘smartest’ or the ‘most pious’ or the ‘best victim’ who can virtue-signal, are not anywhere above the person who simply doesn’t apply hate (or whatever negative or non-preferable word a person feels like picking at the time). And I prefer less hate.
 
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Pallf

I'm tired
May 27, 2018
249
I feel nothing but contempt for school shooters. Those little kids at Sandy Hook didn't deserve to die. I'm fine with suicidal people taking their own lives, but taking someone or several other people with them is abhorrent. That should be the opposite of what it means to be pro-choice when it comes to suicide
 
Fylobatica

Fylobatica

Inactive
Apr 1, 2018
365
My point is that no individual has more access to moral truth

Mine was that the vast majority of killing sprees could be avoided if the perpetrators felt less disrespected by their peers or society as a whole.
Almost all of the students that attempt murder/suicide describe feelings of inappropriateness, low self-esteem and self-loathing in their journals; they feel like they're treated like trash and they succumb to their own rage.

Showing to others the respect that they deserve is not a plain word, is something that could change at least a bit the world.
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
If I could find my bullies and beat the shit out of them and destroy their illusion of superiority towards me I would. I think social hierarchies are just as outrageous. They are faulty mental constructs and no one should recognize their existence. We are all relatively equal, this is why we live in a society, because no one can live without the other. Why should the guy who is physically stronger and has more friends than me, because he's confident and liked and I'm just the loser with social anxiety disorder, get treated humanly while I'm treated like an animal? I kinda understand what a shooter must feel even though I don't want to justify their actions. Sometimes I think to myself, If my school allows people to use their muscle mass against me (not doing anything about it is the same as allowing it) to subjugate and beat me up, then why don't they allow me to I don't know get a pepper spray and defend myself? If you don't want to do anything about it, if the classroom is basically a jungle, then let nature let nature take its course.
 
T

typx

Specialist
May 4, 2018
381
If I could find my bullies and beat the shit out of them and destroy their illusion of superiority towards me I would. I think social hierarchies are just as outrageous. They are faulty mental constructs and no one should recognize their existence. We are all relatively equal, this is why we live in a society, because no one can live without the other. Why should the guy who is physically stronger and has more friends than me, because he's confident and liked and I'm just the loser with social anxiety disorder, get treated humanly while I'm treated like an animal? I kinda understand what a shooter must feel even though I don't want to justify their actions. Sometimes I think to myself, If my school allows people to use their muscle mass against me (not doing anything about it is the same as allowing it) to subjugate and beat me up, then why don't they allow me to I don't know get a pepper spray and defend myself? If you don't want to do anything about it, if the classroom is basically a jungle, then let nature let nature take its course.

I’m sorry people treat you like that, man.
 
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Michel Angelo

Member
Jul 5, 2018
46
I feel nothing but contempt for school shooters. Those little kids at Sandy Hook didn't deserve to die. I'm fine with suicidal people taking their own lives, but taking someone or several other people with them is abhorrent. That should be the opposite of what it means to be pro-choice when it comes to suicide

Generally I agree with you, if one looks at life as a negative, s/he should have the right to ending it, but not ending it for others.

However, in the larger context, the structure of society leads to millions of deaths per year - from war, to how our wealth is distributed and who has access to basic health care, to exporting our (usa) slave labor to factories now in china, to giving Israel a few billion dollars of primarily military aid that's used to kill others in parades etc. - people are killed every day for arbitrary reasons, so personally I really can't blame the occasional person who blows themselves up in Israel or kills an otherwise innocent IDF soldier, I wouldn't do it myself but I don't blame them for doing it. In the long run, anyone who benefits from the current structural inequalities is guilty to some limited extent, even if they are too ignorant to understand such.

It's like how we look at the founding fathers, and those who owned slaves two hundred years ago - it's fucking disgusting now when we think about it, how could we actually empress other humans, well i bet in a few hundred years we'll be looking at factory farms in the same way. Yet the jackass who works at mcdonalds and is otherwise a useless economic slave really isn't to blame, they nonetheless deserve whatever comes to them - as they benefit from working in that sector. Same for farmers. etc.
 
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Michel Angelo

Member
Jul 5, 2018
46
If I could find my bullies and beat the shit out of them and destroy their illusion of superiority towards me I would. I think social hierarchies are just as outrageous. They are faulty mental constructs and no one should recognize their existence. We are all relatively equal, this is why we live in a society, because no one can live without the other. Why should the guy who is physically stronger and has more friends than me, because he's confident and liked and I'm just the loser with social anxiety disorder, get treated humanly while I'm treated like an animal? I kinda understand what a shooter must feel even though I don't want to justify their actions. Sometimes I think to myself, If my school allows people to use their muscle mass against me (not doing anything about it is the same as allowing it) to subjugate and beat me up, then why don't they allow me to I don't know get a pepper spray and defend myself? If you don't want to do anything about it, if the classroom is basically a jungle, then let nature let nature take its course.

I wish that social hierarchies don't exist, however they are readily apparent in nature, and we're (humanity) are still far more on the ape side than anything civilized etc. etc. - So while I do like the truisms about equality and all that other bullshit, I don't see how this is really the case, nor will it be anytime in the near future.

Moreover, as long as people are different with different aptitudes and likes/dislikes, then people really aren't equal - and I wouldn't want them to be treated the same. I think that a baseline (UBI) standard of living would be nice, but all this equality crap is typically made by the losers, so they have nothing to lose by complaining of the status quo.

"because no one can live without the other" - well, again, that sounds like a truism, I'm not sure whether that's true - with the population the size it is people are readily expendable.
 
RainAndSadness

RainAndSadness

Global Mod
Jun 12, 2018
1,545
I've been through hell back in school and I still didn't recover from it.

Fuck bullying. Fuck the people that are doing it and fuck everyone who is looking away when it happens. Bullying can destroy people, especially when it happens over the course of several years. It's a serious issue and people doing it should face serious consequences for fucking up people like that. It's one of the major reasons for my misery. It's the reason why I became suicidal for the first time in my life, when I was around 15 years old. I remember the summer when I desperately wanted to kill myself to avoid going to school. It's still haunting me. And I know a lot of young people commit suicide because of bullying. In all honesty: I personally don't feel any sadness if people who push other people into suicide die a painful death. These people are scum.