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motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
What does forgiveness mean? Is it always possible to forgive? People who have the gall to tell victims of abuse that they'll never heal unless they forgive their abusers are psychologically abusive. How the fuck am I supposed to forgive my dead father for molesting me for years when I'm fucking 40 & I just woke up from a nightmare about him raping me when I was 6?
 
demuic

demuic

Life was a mistake
Sep 12, 2020
1,172
I'm not sure what it means the way people use it. It seems to occupy the same space as sayings like "move on."

It seems to be a way to place the burden and the blame on the one who was mistreated rather than the abuser. As if it is a personal defect that they were scarred by whatever happened to them.

People want victims of abuse to be saintly and always the so called "better person" as if you are bad person for having negative feelings towards someone who abused you.

I don't see why someone should have to "forgive."

Just another way our society caters to abusers and enables abuse.
 
thereisthemist

thereisthemist

a useless fat faggot
Nov 5, 2021
9
Being molested myself at the age of 5 or so by an older cousin, while me coming out as a submissive gay boi.
Yes I have all sorts of fucked up knowledge/thoughts when I think about sexuality and childhood, for me it's no longer a forgiveness negotiable issue. It's the irony of humanity, the insufferable wonder in pain.
Suicide must be one logical way to end all this. Or is it?
Forgive or not, please do remember how strong you are carrying the lengthy journey so far.
 
avoid_slow_death

avoid_slow_death

Ready to embrace the peaceful bliss of the void.
Feb 4, 2020
1,077
I guess it's different for different people. I forgave my dad for all the horrible things he did to me. Including almost strangling me to death over a sarcastic remark. But that in no way means that that's what everyone should do. Especially in a case like yours @hotelbeneathground I am pretty damn sure I could never forgive such a henious act. Nor should anyone. As for the forgetting part, well, that's just as if not more difficult than forgiveness. Some shit is just so traumatizing that it will haunt you for the rest of your life. How you deal with it is and should be your choice and your choice only. It's such a deep personal thing that you're the only one who can truly know how it affects you. That said, I wish you the best in the road ahead. Again, you deserve something better out of life than what you have experienced so far.
 
OrcWitch

OrcWitch

Mage
Sep 3, 2021
533
Forgiveness should only happen when the survivor naturally reaches that conclusion themselves. And when they do forgive it should only be for their own emotional benefit, not on behalf of the abuser.

To me forgiveness isn't about seeing the good in someone or saying what they did is okay now. It's accepting them as a fucked up being and their crimes as being a consequence of their fucked up mind. It's reframing them as a force of nature rather than as a human being.

It shouldn't ever be given as advice. It's something a victim has to come to on their own terms when the time is right, if ever. It's okay to never forgive.
 
threesummers

threesummers

Enlightened
Nov 4, 2020
1,466
What does forgiveness mean? Is it always possible to forgive? People who have the gall to tell victims of abuse that they'll never heal unless they forgive their abusers are psychologically abusive. How the fuck am I supposed to forgive my dead father for molesting me for years when I'm fucking 40 & I just woke up from a nightmare about him raping me when I was 6?
Fuck any assholes who say you should forgive some shit like that. There are some hates I'm going to take to my grave.
 
little helpers

little helpers

did I tie the tourniquet on my arm or on my neck?
Dec 14, 2021
522
isn’t “forgiveness” another extention of religious control (if not religious *abuse*)?

I have literally the same nightmares. goes on repeat and repeat and repeat every other night. flashbacks on dope, even. very visually. nothing buys me a true moment of peace.

it’d be more important to forgive yourself. like you said on another thread, to “realize it’s not your fault and hate yourself a bit less”.
 
S

StarryStarry

Specialist
Oct 25, 2021
338
I am so sorry to hear what had happened to you. It is one of the unforgivable sins as far as I'm concerned. I hope that you know this wasn't your fault. I know that there are a lot of survivors who were told it was their fault that this happened to them. Well, FUCK them it's not your fault. I hope that you were able to approach your "father" and tell him how you felt before he died. My heart goes out to you.
 
Sprite_Geist

Sprite_Geist

NULL
May 27, 2020
1,223
I see it as something which firstly requires effort on behalf of the party that did wrong. A person (or entity) should be forgiven on the condition that they change their behaviour, so as to not deliberately hurt anybody again in the future. This is the purpose of forgiveness: to give someone another chance for their own sake and for the sake of others. But what good is this if the offending person continues to behave wrongly? It defeats the point.

If an abuser has the choice to not feel remorse for their past actions then the victim, too, has a choice about whether or not they should let go of any transgressions.
 
*Psyche*

*Psyche*

Goddess of the Soul
Dec 10, 2021
48
I want to forget, not forgive. Too bad neither of those things are possible.
Forgiving won't make you forget & unfortunately forgetting is practically impossible. I'm so sorry for your situation.
Have you tried therapy? It might help you figure out how to cope with the issues that still haunt you.
 
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DobryDen

Member
Jul 12, 2021
17
Wow- forgiveness... thats a tough one... and Ive come to deeply respect how personal it is. In my opinion, no one and I mean no one has any authority or right to to define forgiveness for anyone else! Full stop. For me, Im at a place in life where forgiveness means I want (as much as possible) to stop feeling the anger, pain, and the deep, deep pain from the injustice of it all. Forgiveness for me is completely and entirely for me. It has nothing to do with the other person/situation- it does NOT let them off the hook or grant any level of acceptance of what happened or what they did. Its about me doing what I can to let go of pain. It is difficult to describe because I do not think forgiveness is a "one and done" thing-- I can be triggered, people can resurface, etc... forgiveness is an on-going process I keep having to repeat. And again- it has nothing to do with the other person. I don't need to have them in my life or to say anything to them. Its not about being a "good person." Its only about freeing myself from some pain if I can. Somewhere in my mix of forgiveness is letting go of the need for justice, for fairness. There is no fairness and no justice. I can at least work on letting go of the pain of that part.

And to be honest, I do not forgive a lot- at least in the traditional definition of "forgive." I think sometimes its important to not forgive for me- I can not forgive and still work on letting go of the anger around what happened. If that makes sense.
 
zeroornothing

zeroornothing

Global Mod “Ye shall be as gods..🐍🍎”
Jun 22, 2021
1,915
Forgiveness is so overrated and unrealistic. Sure it is easy to pretend to have forgiven someone. (Christians took it a little bit too far imo) Thats why I personally believe in god of equilibrium. The one that restores balance to deeds so they are equal to zero again.
 
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Persephone ❦

Persephone ❦

Global Mom
Mar 28, 2021
594
I have posted about this subject before, but I wanted to reiterate that I firmly believe that forgiveness culture is coercive, sanctimonious bullshit. The entire rhetoric surrounding it is reminiscent of religious doctrine. Forgiveness itself is often subjective, ill-defined in this context and even contradictory to the actual dictionary definition in some cases.

It takes the focus away from the abhorrent actions of abusers and conveniently shifts the spotlight to their victims. Rather than holding abusive individuals accountable for their actions, it places responsibility on the victim to forgive, to release all resentment and to let go.

Personally, as a victim of long-term abuse - including torture and rape - I have noticed that some condemned me more for not forgiving, than the perpetrators for torturing a fucking child. If you do not give in to the insidious insistence that you must rise above the pain and be the "better" person, you are labelled bitter and weak.

Even when people attempt to argue that forgiveness is not about excusing abuse (e.g. "You don't do it for them, you forgive for yourself"), the end result is essentially the same. The victim is shamed and silenced. The perpetrator receives reassurance that they can be "forgiven." The atrocities of abuse are quietly concealed. And the cycle continues.

To be clear, I am not against people who are able to and choose to forgive and find that it genuinely helps them. That's fair enough. If it helps, that's great and I'm happy for those who do find forgiveness useful. To each their own.

What I'm opposed to is a culture that attempts to coerce, gaslight and guilt-trip all victims into doing the same, with even fellow victims jumping on the bandwagon and demeaning anyone with an alternative approach. I have experienced this myself, both from outsiders who have never been abused in their lives, and from fellow victims (which always hurts so much more).

It is utter bullshit that this narrative is thrust onto victims of abuse, and those who perpetuate it point the finger at anyone who refuses to adhere to forgiveness culture. The only direction that finger should be pointed at is towards perpetrators, where it belongs.

I understand that there are those who forgive and find this to be beneficial for them. I am not disputing that and - like I said above - I am not against that. But no-one has any right to dictate how other people should feel about their trauma. No-one. No-one is entitled to claim that you must forgive in order to improve, that it's the "only path" to healing.

Due to the fact this perspective is so deeply ingrained - I even regularly encountered it in therapy - I tried to forgive. I tried and tried. It only made me feel even worse. It was utterly suffocating. Part of this is because it was not sincere forgiveness, part of it was because I was being told to do so by others, and part of it is because I frankly do not want to forgive.

I'm generally a rather forgiving person, in all honesty. I respect those who are not. I respect people's right not to be. I have forgiven a lot of people for a lot of things, including serious breaches of trust. But for me, what those who raped me, tortured me and abused me did is unforgivable.

I can accept that these awful acts happened to me, I can learn to understand why those who hurt me behaved that way, I can even empathise with many of the experiences the perpetrators endured in their own lives (my mother was abused herself, for example). I can do that, but I will never forgive. I have every right not to do so. I have every right to be angry. My anger is justified, and I've worked hard to allow myself to feel that anger. I do not feel that others have any business telling me I must "let go" of it.

The fact I feel this way should not be regarded as a character defect or personal weakness. Those who do not forgive people who have deeply harmed them are not inferior to those who do. Forgiveness is not some sign of superiority or enlightenment. Notwithstanding the cultural and religious connotations, it is merely an approach to healing - a tool. For some, this tool is useful and helps to mend some of the damage they have endured. For others, it is little more than a bandaid solution, a tool that simply does not fit. And that is okay. Whether it works for you or not, that is perfectly okay.

You too have every right to make these decisions for yourself, @hotelbeneathground. What your father did is indescribably terrible and if you can't forgive or don't want to forgive, that is completely justified. I personally wouldn't either. No-one should ever tell you how to feel about the years of suffering you endured at the hands of your father, or preach what "the path to healing" is. What you do is your judgement call and yours alone, and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to feel. :heart:
 
zeroornothing

zeroornothing

Global Mod “Ye shall be as gods..🐍🍎”
Jun 22, 2021
1,915
What @Persephone ❦ says sums up what I feel about the subject %100. It is one thing to be involved with people who wronged you for reasons you could somehow justify like due to their being provoked or their own personal limitations like being too young, ignorant or short tempered to realize the consequences of their actions. But when there is no excuse to the wrongdoing towards you other than some evil, psychopathic and sadistic enjoyment by abusing the victim, what does forgiveness even look like? We are not saints, we are just humans and we seek justice for ourselves innately. Thats not to say it is impossible to forgive even these types of unjustified wrongdoings against us but it really depends on the person and even then the consequences of those deed remain and cant be undone.
 
Pluto

Pluto

Faux human
Dec 27, 2020
639
I had a nightmare about my father recently too. I always had a desire to move on because it seems so unfair that my life would be all about him, just as his life was (pathologically) all about himself. The fact that sadists 'get off' on knowing that we are still suffering can lead to a vicious circle of trying ever harder to escape the curse, only to fail as the noose tightens even more. Serious trauma is generally something life-long, like an extreme injury. I think the best that can be done is try and coexist with it as gracefully as possible.
 
Kalebri

Kalebri

Slave
Dec 18, 2021
24
Forgiveness depends on the circumstances of the moment and your feelings. I've already forgiven many people in my past, but some of them i regret it because they didn't deserve it.

To explain in another words, forgiveness is a romantic act in a dying world, which means it's completely worthless nowadays for both sides.
 
Ashu

Ashu

Member
Nov 13, 2021
84
To me forgiveness isn't about seeing the good in someone or saying what they did is okay now. It's accepting them as a fucked up being and their crimes as being a consequence of their fucked up mind. It's reframing them as a force of nature rather than as a human being.

Yes, exactly, this is the true meaning of karma, which rightly understood shows us that freedom, choice, and responsibility are illusions, an insight that totally transforms our experience of other people and our human life for the better.
I can forgive the kid who stole my lolipop when we were 4. Thats most I am capable of
Isn't the principle the same, whatever the act?
 
VoidDesirer22

VoidDesirer22

A dream inside a locked room
Sep 6, 2021
202
I want to forget, not forgive. Too bad neither of those things are possible.
Some things can only be forgotten in death. So technically it is "possible".

(Don't view this as ctb encouragement. I want you to continue to forget as much as possible. It does not define you.)

Even though I wasn't abused myself, that scene in Good Will Hunting where he repeats "it wasn't your fault" makes me cry every time I watch it.
 
T

TooConscious

Elementalist
Sep 16, 2020
802
You've been through horrors of the worst. I hoe you know your strength. I will call it humanity if they change the definition to evil sadists. Many people these days are pretending to have been abused to get sympathy, they are often as bad as the perpetrator those who are even un-caring they tarnish their good parents name. But the loving parents tend to forgive them. I know women who are with a guy who gang raped them with his friends. And the woman will lock good men and defend her 'man' who uses and abuses her. Laughs behind her back.

So forgiveness must exist in some sense. People are just foolish.
I don't believe in forgiveness.
"People just have short memories."
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
Forgiveness for me is completely and entirely for me. It has nothing to do with the other person/situation- it does NOT let them off the hook or grant any level of acceptance of what happened or what they did. Its about me doing what I can to let go of pain. It is difficult to describe because I do not think forgiveness is a "one and done" thing-- I can be triggered, people can resurface, etc... forgiveness is an on-going process I keep having to repeat. And again- it has nothing to do with the other person. I don't need to have them in my life or to say anything to them. Its not about being a "good person." Its only about freeing myself from some pain if I can. Somewhere in my mix of forgiveness is letting go of the need for justice, for fairness. There is no fairness and no justice. I can at least work on letting go of the pain of that part.

And to be honest, I do not forgive a lot- at least in the traditional definition of "forgive." I think sometimes its important to not forgive for me- I can not forgive and still work on letting go of the anger around what happened. If that makes sense.
I do not feel that others have any business telling me I must "let go" of it.

Letting go... I can't separate myself from my pain. I am my brain & my unfortunate brain is afflicted with C-PTSD & sexually compulsive. It's not within my power to separate myself from myself, my brain from my damn brain. I don't know how to let go of myself without blowing my brains out.
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
To me forgiveness isn't about seeing the good in someone or saying what they did is okay now. It's accepting them as a fucked up being and their crimes as being a consequence of their fucked up mind. It's reframing them as a force of nature rather than as a human being.

Looks good on paper, but I highly doubt a significant number of people are able to do it. My brain definitely can't see my pedophile father as a hurricane or a flood.
 
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Zzzzz

Zzzzz

Thine pastry is untrue.
Aug 8, 2018
622
I'm so sorry. I wish I had a solution for you. In some cases it might be impossible to forgive, or at least almost impossible. Its cruel of people to say that about forgiveness, as if to blame the victim because they haven't recovered from a traumatic experience. 🤗
 
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