L

Lorraine

Member
Nov 19, 2020
32
I appreciate all of the information in this thread but have two responses:
1. Some of us will never be able to handle a shotgun and are not willing (or have the know how) to saw it down. Just not realistic for many people. A pistol, if aimed precisely and using hollow points, should absolutely do the job.
2. The fact that the original post mentioned the sound of cocking a shotgun as "sexy" is something I believe to be completely inappropriate, especially on this site.
~ L
 
N

nolifer

Member
Dec 25, 2020
46
I appreciate all of the information in this thread but have two responses:
1. Some of us will never be able to handle a shotgun and are not willing (or have the know how) to saw it down. Just not realistic for many people. A pistol, if aimed precisely and using hollow points, should absolutely do the job.
~ L
Any kind of hollow point? Even 9mm? 9mm is far from reliable, but I'm not an expert so I don't know if 9mm hollow points make such a huge difference. Do you have any evidence? Any links to share?
 
Sans

Sans

Gun Rights are Human Rights.
Oct 2, 2019
210
If I shot myself in the head with a shotgun and didn’t immediately pass, and I was still conscious, in pain and suffering, would I be able to pick up the gun and try again with a second shot? Or would I not have the physical/mental capacity to?

Note: this is hypothetical, I don’t own a gun.
 
WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN

WIN32_LEAN_AND_MEAN

In those days, men will seek death but not find it
Mar 26, 2020
44
If I shot myself in the head with a shotgun and didn’t immediately pass, and I was still conscious, in pain and suffering, would I be able to pick up the gun and try again with a second shot? Or would I not have the physical/mental capacity to?

Note: this is hypothetical, I don’t own a gun.
It depends on what you hit as well as your own body's reaction which isn't really predictable. But either way you should bleed enough to cause unconsciousness (if you aren't already unconscious from shock) within seconds, and completely bleed out within a few minutes. Especially if you take a blood thinner like aspirin beforehand.
 
L

Last chance

Specialist
Feb 6, 2021
349
Im in the UK and have no idea about firearms,would the ammunition used for clay pigeon shooting be up for the job?
 
siray

siray

the crucified
Dec 28, 2018
174
It could work, but why chance it? For the price of even the cheapest 38 revolver, you can get a used (or new) highpoint 45, single shot or pump shotgun, or maybe an AR. All three would be much more likely to work, and not leave you a vegetable or disfigured.

Again, behind the ear could work, but in the mouth is more likely to work as intended. It's much easier to gauge your angle in your mouth, as you really only have to worry about the vertical orientation. Behind the ear, you need to make sure your vertical and horizontal angles are correct, which is much more important with a small caliber like 38, 380, or 9mm.

Finally, small caliber hollow point ammo (like 38 and 380) have been shown to expand inconsistently. I have read and seen that the ballistics of a flat-nose cartridge are more consistent, and pretty much equal with these two calibers. Flat nose looks like this:
837050.jpg
Thanks for this info. So, I should go for a .45 over any other handgun, right?
Is it possible to shoot myself in the back of my head to the brainstem, instead of through the mouth?
 
N

nolifer

Member
Dec 25, 2020
46
Thanks for this info. So, I should go for a .45 over any other handgun, right?
Is it possible to shoot myself in the back of my head to the brainstem, instead of through the mouth?
That's extremely difficult to aim. They discussed that before ITT and recommended against it.
 
H

HenryHobkins

Student
Nov 5, 2020
112
I doubt this stuff exists, but i would love to see data on the survivability rates of certain headshot angles (Through the temple, or mouth)

On a seperate note, Its not a very professional article, but I found it interesting for basic info if it hasnt already been linked

 
X

xaea13

Member
Jul 13, 2020
88
Probably asked this before, but if I'm using a shotgun and buckshot/slugs aren't available, what is the most effective type of birdshot ammo for CTB?
 
L

lifeisbutadream

Arcanist
Oct 4, 2018
414
Probably asked this before, but if I'm using a shotgun and buckshot/slugs aren't available, what is the most effective type of birdshot ammo for CTB?


Get the biggest size birdshot you can, but really at point blank range it makes no difference. There are some online videos comparing the damage between birdshot and buckshot and slugs that you can search out. All are devastating at close range. You can even test it yourself on a melon.
 
catch99

catch99

Member
Apr 18, 2021
61
It depends on what you hit as well as your own body's reaction which isn't really predictable. But either way you should bleed enough to cause unconsciousness (if you aren't already unconscious from shock) within seconds, and completely bleed out within a few minutes. Especially if you take a blood thinner like aspirin beforehand.
So taking some Aspirin beforehand will make the process quicker?
 
siray

siray

the crucified
Dec 28, 2018
174
That's extremely difficult to aim. They discussed that before ITT and recommended against it.
Oh okay. Then aiming through the mouth or behind the ear should be preferred. I just don't understand behind the ear, all the description I've read on this thread, still I'm not sure how one would hold the gun precisely.

Though I do understand perfectly how to do it through the mouth, 10-15 degree tilted upwards.
 
catch99

catch99

Member
Apr 18, 2021
61
Oh okay. Then aiming through the mouth or behind the ear should be preferred. I just don't understand behind the ear, all the description I've read on this thread, still I'm not sure how one would hold the gun precisely.

Though I do understand perfectly how to do it through the mouth, 10-15 degree tilted upwards.
You sure about 10-15 degree? What I've heard is 45 degree
 
X

xaea13

Member
Jul 13, 2020
88
You sure about 10-15 degree? What I've heard is 45 degree
I thought it was 30 degrees. Well, clearly none of those estimates have come from people who have actually tried it.
 
F

f merrick

Member
Apr 10, 2021
6
Changing the subject slightly - I have this weird, romantic, and probably fairly unrealistic idea that a gunshot to the heart beats one to the head. Yes, more agony but youre at least not obliterating your command center, which seems like it could create all sorts of undesirable and torturous states of consciousness if things go wrong. At least with a shot to the heart, if you hit it squarely, you can experience your death for a few moments without fucking your brain up in a way that could make it an unpredictable nightmare.

However from the thread I gather a few things:
1. It's much easier said than done to actually hit your heart. Especially if using a shotgun which is ideal.
2. Even if you do, the damage is unpredictable and you could be alive/suffering for an immensely long time before losing consciousness.
3. God forbid you were saved, you risk some nightmarish life-saving scenarios in the hospital and then post-hospital disabilities.

Does that seem accurate? Other reasons not to go for the heart?
 
  • Like
Reactions: siray
siray

siray

the crucified
Dec 28, 2018
174
You sure about 10-15 degree? What I've heard is 45 degree
Yeah that's what the experts had advised on this thread, 10-15 degree is ideal. 45 degree is too high, it won't cause instant unconsciousness.
 
N

nolifer

Member
Dec 25, 2020
46
I have doubts about how effective the ballistic gel tests are, because according to those tests, it doesn't seem to matter which gun you use, a 9mm bullet does same damage as a 12 gauge shotgun on ballistic gel. But in videos where they use for example a pig head or other items/meat/etc then a 9mm will be difficult to notice, you'll have to really inspect thouroughly to find the tiny tunnel it made. Although if you use a 12 gauge shotgun on the same pig head, then it just completely fucks that pig head up and makes it explode.

Any expert here who can enlighten on this matter?
 
justsayin

justsayin

Member
Jan 30, 2021
195
I have doubts about how effective the ballistic gel tests are, because according to those tests, it doesn't seem to matter which gun you use, a 9mm bullet does same damage as a 12 gauge shotgun on ballistic gel. But in videos where they use for example a pig head or other items/meat/etc then a 9mm will be difficult to notice, you'll have to really inspect thouroughly to find the tiny tunnel it made. Although if you use a 12 gauge shotgun on the same pig head, then it just completely fucks that pig head up and makes it explode.

Any expert here who can enlighten on this matter?
Ballistic gelatin is widely used because it is transparent, cheap, easy to use, and good enough approximation of soft tissue. On the other hand, human body is not made of homogenous soft tissue, and interpreting test results require some expertise.
 
N

nolifer

Member
Dec 25, 2020
46
I've done more research about firearms, and learned that what it really comes down to if you want to know how much damage it will do, is the energy in ft/lbf

A .357 has 583 ft⋅lbf
9mm has 537 ft⋅lbf
.45 ACP has 497 ft⋅lbf
.44 magnum has 1,160 ft⋅lbf

So, when we look at handguns, they're all pretty much in the same range of energy (same damage), except for .44 magnum revolver which is more than twice as powerful than all the other handguns.

Keep in mind though that it depends on which handgun model and ammo you use. You won't get top energy output with any model or ammo. These numbers were taken from wikipedia.

I also looked into black powder firearms a bit more.
And if you load them correct (tight so it shaves of a ring of lead), with a lot of black powder, because more black powder means more energy, up to some point at least. you also must be careful because apparently some black powder gun models can't handle more than a specific amount of energy.
But if you do all above right, you can get them to come up to 486 ft-lbs, which is in the same range of other modern handguns. But if you don't do it right, it can be as low as 343 ft-lbs.

So, the next question is how much energy do we need to achieve 100% success rate?
Success meaning that your brain AND brain stem should be annihilated and you should get knocked out and lose consciousness.
Success is NOT being consciousness and bleeding to death.

Well, it's been said a few times iirc, that suicide by handgun has a statistical success rate of around 50% (i can't remember exactly). This is from some FBI/gov/etc report, I can't remember.

Maybe they were not using the right model of handgun and wrong ammo, and in that case they might only have had around 350 ft/lbf?
Or maybe they aimed it wrong? But aiming is HARD, that's why we want as much energy as we can get, because if we were all masters at aiming, then we wouldn't need much energy. We want to succeed as long as we aim in the general direction. Is it 15% degrees? 30%? 45?%? It's hard to know, and also hard to know how many degrees you're aiming, so we need as much energy as possible.

Maybe the ballistic gelatin tests aren't that useful as I said in another post, because all these weapons, incl .44 magnum and 12 gauge shotguns have more or less the same shock wave in gelatin. But when you shoot on a pig head that results are much different and resemble more the energy values they have.

9mm and .357 do very little damage to a pig head, but a 12 gauge shotgun or .44 magnum does very much damage.

So, because suicide by handgun has a statistical success rate of around 50%, I don't think 9mm, .357, .45 ACP are to be recommended.
The question is if .44 magnum is good enough with its double energy output.

Because a typical 1 oz. (437.5 grain) 2 3/4" Foster shotgun slug (12 gauge) achieves a velocity of approximately 1,560 fps with a muzzle energy of 2,363 ft. lbs. And that's more than double as powerful as a .44 magnum revolver.

Shotguns have 95% success rate, meanwhile handguns have around 50%. But, there are no statistics that I'm aware of that are done only with .44 magnum, so the magnum is put in the same statistics as the other handguns. So, we don't know if the 1.1k energy of a magnum is enough or not. But the 2.3k energy of a shotgun is enough.

The disadvantage with a shotgun is more difficulty to aim, but it's still possible, otherwise it wouldn't have 95% success rate.

Btw, I'm not a gun expert, so please correct me if my research is incorrect.
 
siray

siray

the crucified
Dec 28, 2018
174
@nolifer Thanks for sharing this data. I don't believe the 50% success rate of handguns, we need to exclude all the cases in which subject aimed incorrectly or under the chin, or flinched when pulling the trigger.

My preferred method is a handgun, preferably the strongest, but I'll settle for 9mm if that's what's available to me.

If only some expert on this thread could tell me how and where to aim with a handgun, inside the mouth with 10-15 degree upwards angle, or behind the ear (I have no idea how to do this).
 
L

lonerclown666

Arcanist
Dec 1, 2020
439
the problem is not the money is where i can buy a gun
 
L

lonerclown666

Arcanist
Dec 1, 2020
439
Even if i die I want to be proud of owning a gun in my life
 
justsayin

justsayin

Member
Jan 30, 2021
195
@nolifer Thanks for sharing this data. I don't believe the 50% success rate of handguns, we need to exclude all the cases in which subject aimed incorrectly or under the chin, or flinched when pulling the trigger.

My preferred method is a handgun, preferably the strongest, but I'll settle for 9mm if that's what's available to me.

If only some expert on this thread could tell me how and where to aim with a handgun, inside the mouth with 10-15 degree upwards angle, or behind the ear (I have no idea how to do this).

50% success rate might apply to .22 LR handguns. but not to more powerful ones (unless everyone is shooting them in the chin upwards).

The aiming point is brainstem. It doesn't matter from which side. Executions are usually done with pistol to the back of the head. Suicides tend to use gun frontally or from the side.

The bigger the gun, the less need for an accurate aim. With 12-gauge buckshot it is only necessary to point the gun in the general direction of the brain. 9mm FMJ requires some anatomy knowledge and a steady hand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: siray
catch99

catch99

Member
Apr 18, 2021
61
357 magnum is my preferred way to go. I saw a picture of a woman who shot herself with a 44 magnum and her head fuckkkked up. 357 probably is a bit less damage than that.

30 degree agree from inside the mouth. I think worst case scenario I'll bleed out over the course of a few minutes, but either way I'll likely be knocked tf out. If I'm still conscious then I'll take another shot and seal the deal.

There's way too many people on here that say they'd rather die by SN than a gun. I understand if you can't get a gun but if you can get one then who the hell would prefer a multiple hour chemical poisoning over a gunshot. Makes no damn sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: siray
N

nolifer

Member
Dec 25, 2020
46
Yeah I also don't understand how people can prefer to commit to a slow death by SN. Even if it's not physically painful, I imagine it must be terrifying laying there and knowing there's no way to back out.

I am however torn between firearms vs full drop hanging. Hanging does almost the same thing as firearm, which is to destroy the brain stem. The drop makes the brain stem get ripped out from the brain, which causes 100% of the time immediate unconsciousness. And Full drop hanging research is far more reliable because it's been used since "the beginning of time" for both suicide and for executions. It's been researched by scientists and doctors. So you can trust the research behind full drop hangings.

The research behind firearms is not as reliable. It's mostly speculations, calculating energy output of weapons, testing on ballistic gel, etc. There's a great lack of data.

But full drop hanging is inconvenient if you don't live somewhere secluded with a garden, trees, etc. Because then you have to take the car/bus to some forest and set everything up with rope, ladder, etc, not that easy. Most homes don't have a high enough ceiling for a full drop hanging. It's not easy to go through with CTB after all. So it could end up being very many wasted trips to the forest.

But if you're not american, then it's difficult to get a gun, and after my recent research, I wouldn't do it without a shotgun or .44 magnum revolver. I could get a license for a shotgun, but it's a lengthy process to go through. Although I'm still considering black powder rifle. The black powder pistols don't have enough energy for me to feel comfortable, but the BP rifles might be sufficient.

So, I think for me personally it would be a choice between a black powder rifle or full drop hanging.

I think whichever method I choose, it's scary thinking about the consequence if something went wrong. But a good motivator for me at least is reminding myself that if you don't do it, you'll have to suffer sooner or later a "natural" death anyway, which are equally unpleasant or much more unpleasant than a CTB method.
 
A

ambry77

New Member
Apr 21, 2021
1
Hello, I have decided to use a handgun over a shotgun. I am thinking about buying a .44 mag revolver but recently discovered .454 casull which has like 800 ft-lbs more muzzle energy. My point is that I am deciding which one to buy. Does the extra muzzle energy matter?
 
F

F_Alonso

Member
Dec 26, 2020
12
Hello, I have decided to use a handgun over a shotgun. I am thinking about buying a .44 mag revolver but recently discovered .454 casull which has like 800 ft-lbs more muzzle energy. My point is that I am deciding which one to buy. Does the extra muzzle energy matter?
.44 mag out of a 6" barrel is plenty. On the other hand, if you can get a .454 Casull revolver at a similar price, go for it. The additional energy and muzzle blast associated with a more powerful cartridge should make you feel calmer before you get down to business.
 
  • Like
Reactions: siray and ambry77