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hotelbeneathground

hotelbeneathground

zzz
Joined
Apr 13, 2021
Messages
2,801
JustJudah said:
Well, we are not the only anti-natalists here, more and more new generations are adopting this way of thinking
Yeah, I'm sure that antinatalism is really popular in poor religious countries
 
stellabelle

stellabelle

ethereal
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
3,370
progeria said:
Why do people have children? At the birth of a child, a person feels a surge of pleasant hormones. A person feels the fulfillment of a life goal, but this is all so realistic. It's good if this continues until the child comes of age, but often parents give birth to children just like that, without any purpose, because their hormones tell them to do it.I think that this is very selfish and in our time there is no good reason to have offspring and bring another life into this world just to satisfy your gut.
I have to agree with you. I think it is selfish to procreate.

People have children to entertain themselves, their spouses, or the community. They have children because they want someone to love, or someone to love them back. Or sometimes they have children for another purpose like staying out of jail, or to have an income, to try and stay clean off of drugs or alcohol, and so on.

It depends on who we’re talking about. Sometimes people just want a “family” or whatever that means to them.

Sometimes it’s about healing their own emotional pain.

sometimes it’s to hold onto a partner. Sometimes it’s a pride thing.

I think it’s cruel and unusual to force people into situations they don’t want to be in using coercion. As if it’s some right of passage. Some kind of trophy.

“but please, it’ll love you forever, and I’ll be here toooooo.”


The world is cruel. People are incredibly selfish and some even put out as many people as they can. If it’s mutually agreed upon, then fine. But truthfully speaking I think it’s morally wrong to bring another person into this world. People lie and say life is about suffering, that it’s supposed to be this way - as if that justifies existence.

Sometimes it’s to micromanage things, have control over another conscious creature, or live vicariously through another human body.

And you never know what you’ll get. Nature versus nurture versus you versus them.
You could wind up with the next serial killer or mass shooter. Your perfect boy or girl may not wind up being soooooo perfect after all.

and while they don’t have to be “perfect”, they are a dime a dozen. The financial and emotional toll they take, along with the physical laborious task of “dealing” with them.

when we look at people who want children, have them, and then just spend their time complaining about them, or insisting they are the bestest thing ever, only to talk lousy about them and repeatedly shut them down or put them down, use them as a weapon of some kind against their spouse, or as an emotional punching bag so to speak - we ask why the hell they ever had one in the first place. Because of selfishness, unfortunately. Because of narcissism. Like the world needs another one of them.

People have played too many hearts and too many games. Who cares about it at this point?

there are good folks left in this world but too many bad ones to count. too many people that intentionally cause harm or destruction. People that continue creating people because, well, they think that’s what they’re supposed to do.

but I think there are enough people in this world. Enough of the enablers, enough of the selective listeners, enough of the sadists, enough of the drunks, enough of the drug addicts, enough of all of them.

I think if you want a family, you should adopt because there are too many unwanted children in this world as it is. We look at our streets and the adults that wander them. The ghoulish people that are victims of their parents, their peers, and society.

we “treat” children as if they are so special, and then withdraw this affection. When they’re “old enough” we put them down never to pick them back up.

now we have a culture of people that sleep in the streets with nothing else. Why didn’t anybody love them enough to save them from society?

we “love our boys and girls” and we “do it for the kids” like they matter, but we only use and abuse them for the labor force, the tax write off, the population itself at large. Then we throw them into the street for the streets to deal with them. And this mind boggling “game” of life has become so bitter and evil, the same little kids we were so kind to are out here miserable, alone, stuck, with nowhere to go, nothing to do, no purpose, nothing to gain and nothing to lose.

“you can be anything you want to be” - not always true. With discrimination, the glass ceilings, invasion of privacy, escalation of behaviors, lack of trust in the world itself, we have created the worst possible clusterfuck of existence.

I think there are more suicidal people and children in this world than we really care to even admit or study or examine. We are all mind boggled as to why anybody would want to exist at all, especially when we are participating in this forum.

so to each their own I guess. Morality versus purpose versus reasoning versus nonsense versus you versus them.

attention competitions, trying to get to the top of an imaginary totem pole for a popularity contest that doesn’t really even exist at all.

behavioral bullshit. People use people against people. They use objects to cause them harm, if it’s sentimental and so on. People think they are masterminds because they can bother someone who is intelligent but shares too much personal information or honesty. It’s devastating because there are too many sadists. Congratulations you spat out something that will be just like you, completely and utterly evil and worthless.

People are so selfish they show no remorse, no guilt, and no regard for others.

By creating more people we are adding to the problem. It’s about sex, it’s about power, it’s about privilege, it’s about shit disturbers that think the world needs another one of them.

to be quite honest, it’s a waste of time, a waste of money, a waste of everything in general.

we have people that have people, for the sole purpose of trafficking. Trafficking sex or drugs or whatever.

it’s just a nightmare. We keep waking up day in and day out but there is no real purpose of doing so.


night by night and day by day.

the world could be a decent place but it isn’t.

people don’t want it to be.
 
W

whywere

Enlightened
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
1,148
Flippy said:
I've read a fair few of your posts and you certainly seem to have had more than your fair share of harsh experiences :-( It must have been horrible to be told that from the very people who should have built you up and nurtured you!

Leaving home should have been a positive right of passage! Not something you are forced to do when you hit an arbitrary age limit. It's exactly the sort of shit my mother put me through. Yet so many people are horrified when they find out I haven't spoken to her in over 16 years.
My heart broke in two pieces when I read about how you were also treated. I am so sorry for you as I know what it is like. Also, THANK YOU so, so much for the very kind thoughts, I really appreciate it very much! I can so understand where you are coming from as far as people are so judgmental about something and they have no idea at all why and it is none of their business, but they always have a opinion anyway. Like when my "parents" died, my "dad" first then my "mom" a few years latter. People were beyond horrified when I did not show up both of their funerals. I did not show up because both my siblings sent me emails stating that I was NOT welcome at all, and do not show up and start a scene, so I did not. Of course I was the poster child from hell, as far as the community thought since I did not attend. I send you so many huge hugs and love as we are family here and there in again it just makes me so sad to hear also how you were treated. You are a fantastic person and never let anyone tell you different. Walter
 
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meetapple

Member
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Messages
49
whywere said:
My "parents" NEVER wanted me and social norms of the time would have made them look horrible if they put me up for adoption so instead I got 18 years of being called "the mistake" to my face, in public, everywhere. When I got kicked out at 18 I told myself never ever any kids and I am now 65 and zero kids. Too much over population to begin with and having a kid to "keep up" with others?? No thank you. Walter
They were mad at you for a mistake they made?
 
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whywere

Enlightened
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Messages
1,148
meetapple said:
They were mad at you for a mistake they made?
HI! Yes to your question. My "dad" had my older brother and my "mom" had my younger sister, so I was nothing to them but someone who they had to feed and cloth and put a roof over ones head. My "mom" had my older brother and she wanted a daughter and they tried again and got me and so they tried the third time and got a girl. They did not want me ever but there in again social norms of the time would have made them look horrible to the community if they put me up for adoption so instead I got 18 years of hell. I mentioned this before on here, when my "parents" died they left my younger sister a hobby farm and cash, my older brother got over 2.4 million U.S. dollars and I got ZERO. Walter
 
Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
Joined
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Messages
376
progeria said:
Why do people have children? At the birth of a child, a person feels a surge of pleasant hormones. A person feels the fulfillment of a life goal, but this is all so realistic. It's good if this continues until the child comes of age, but often parents give birth to children just like that, without any purpose, because their hormones tell them to do it.I think that this is very selfish and in our time there is no good reason to have offspring and bring another life into this world just to satisfy your gut.
I'm all for a test and a list of requirements you should have to meet before having kids. Stuff like not carrying a debilitating genetic disorder, earning enough to support the child, being mentally well enough to take care of it, not being in a bad relationship of any kind, etc.
Some countries like Japan and some from Europe definetly need more kids, but in general a decline of global birthrates would be a good thing.
 
R

Reap94

Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
13
stellabelle said:
I have to agree with you. I think it is selfish to procreate.

People have children to entertain themselves, their spouses, or the community. They have children because they want someone to love, or someone to love them back. Or sometimes they have children for another purpose like staying out of jail, or to have an income, to try and stay clean off of drugs or alcohol, and so on.

It depends on who we’re talking about. Sometimes people just want a “family” or whatever that means to them.

Sometimes it’s about healing their own emotional pain.

sometimes it’s to hold onto a partner. Sometimes it’s a pride thing.

I think it’s cruel and unusual to force people into situations they don’t want to be in using coercion. As if it’s some right of passage. Some kind of trophy.

“but please, it’ll love you forever, and I’ll be here toooooo.”


The world is cruel. People are incredibly selfish and some even put out as many people as they can. If it’s mutually agreed upon, then fine. But truthfully speaking I think it’s morally wrong to bring another person into this world. People lie and say life is about suffering, that it’s supposed to be this way - as if that justifies existence.

Sometimes it’s to micromanage things, have control over another conscious creature, or live vicariously through another human body.

And you never know what you’ll get. Nature versus nurture versus you versus them.
You could wind up with the next serial killer or mass shooter. Your perfect boy or girl may not wind up being soooooo perfect after all.

and while they don’t have to be “perfect”, they are a dime a dozen. The financial and emotional toll they take, along with the physical laborious task of “dealing” with them.

when we look at people who want children, have them, and then just spend their time complaining about them, or insisting they are the bestest thing ever, only to talk lousy about them and repeatedly shut them down or put them down, use them as a weapon of some kind against their spouse, or as an emotional punching bag so to speak - we ask why the hell they ever had one in the first place. Because of selfishness, unfortunately. Because of narcissism. Like the world needs another one of them.

People have played too many hearts and too many games. Who cares about it at this point?

there are good folks left in this world but too many bad ones to count. too many people that intentionally cause harm or destruction. People that continue creating people because, well, they think that’s what they’re supposed to do.

but I think there are enough people in this world. Enough of the enablers, enough of the selective listeners, enough of the sadists, enough of the drunks, enough of the drug addicts, enough of all of them.

I think if you want a family, you should adopt because there are too many unwanted children in this world as it is. We look at our streets and the adults that wander them. The ghoulish people that are victims of their parents, their peers, and society.

we “treat” children as if they are so special, and then withdraw this affection. When they’re “old enough” we put them down never to pick them back up.

now we have a culture of people that sleep in the streets with nothing else. Why didn’t anybody love them enough to save them from society?

we “love our boys and girls” and we “do it for the kids” like they matter, but we only use and abuse them for the labor force, the tax write off, the population itself at large. Then we throw them into the street for the streets to deal with them. And this mind boggling “game” of life has become so bitter and evil, the same little kids we were so kind to are out here miserable, alone, stuck, with nowhere to go, nothing to do, no purpose, nothing to gain and nothing to lose.

“you can be anything you want to be” - not always true. With discrimination, the glass ceilings, invasion of privacy, escalation of behaviors, lack of trust in the world itself, we have created the worst possible clusterfuck of existence.

I think there are more suicidal people and children in this world than we really care to even admit or study or examine. We are all mind boggled as to why anybody would want to exist at all, especially when we are participating in this forum.

so to each their own I guess. Morality versus purpose versus reasoning versus nonsense versus you versus them.

attention competitions, trying to get to the top of an imaginary totem pole for a popularity contest that doesn’t really even exist at all.

behavioral bullshit. People use people against people. They use objects to cause them harm, if it’s sentimental and so on. People think they are masterminds because they can bother someone who is intelligent but shares too much personal information or honesty. It’s devastating because there are too many sadists. Congratulations you spat out something that will be just like you, completely and utterly evil and worthless.

People are so selfish they show no remorse, no guilt, and no regard for others.

By creating more people we are adding to the problem. It’s about sex, it’s about power, it’s about privilege, it’s about shit disturbers that think the world needs another one of them.

to be quite honest, it’s a waste of time, a waste of money, a waste of everything in general.

we have people that have people, for the sole purpose of trafficking. Trafficking sex or drugs or whatever.

it’s just a nightmare. We keep waking up day in and day out but there is no real purpose of doing so.


night by night and day by day.

the world could be a decent place but it isn’t.

people don’t want it to be.
It's not about wanting to be.
People cannot.
That's the truth.
 
Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
Joined
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Messages
376
JustJudah said:
Well, we are not the only anti-natalists here, more and more new generations are adopting this way of thinking
I definetly agree. Especially in richer regions with already low birthrates ideas like nihilism run rampant, depression is an epidemic and antinatalism is disturbingly popular among young people. This only leads to lower birthrates, which necessitates mass immigration to keep the populationcount stable. As a consequence of that it causes cultural conflicts and strife in the nations taking the mass amounts of immigrants, while the countries of origin experience massive brain drain, stunting economic growth and keeping them in poverty. The only people that really profit off of this system are the rich people in first world nations, everyone else suffers.
 
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demuic

demuic

Life was a mistake
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Messages
829
It always seems like the people who should least have children have them the most. It feels like the amount of abusive, neglectful, or otherwise incompetent even if well meaning parents far outnumber the good ones.

The best thing that anyone can do is not have kids.
 
Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
Joined
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Messages
376
demuic said:
It always seems like the people who should least have children have them the most. It feels like the amount of abusive, neglectful, or otherwise incompetent even if well meaning parents far outnumber the good ones.

The best thing that anyone can do is not have kids.
In my eyes the only logical choice is to have kids, give them the best life and all the chances you never had to fight against the tide. If you have no children, then there will be no chance at all that there will ever be a better future. Antinatalism is the definite wrong choice, humans are the only hope for life to get off of earth before the sun blows, looking at the trajectories of birth rates in first world countries and the fact that every developing country will likely follow in a few decades to a century we will have a giant population collapse, which is to be avoided at all cost.
 
demuic

demuic

Life was a mistake
Joined
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Messages
829
Luchs said:
In my eyes the only logical choice is to have kids, give them the best life and all the chances you never had to fight against the tide. If you have no children, then there will be no chance at all that there will ever be a better future. Antinatalism is the definite wrong choice, humans are the only hope for life to get off of earth before the sun blows, looking at the trajectories of birth rates in first world countries and the fact that every developing country will likely follow in a few decades to a century we will have a giant population collapse, which is to be avoided at all cost.
How many people go into having kids with the intention to give them the best life ever but end up fucking them up anyway?

There's no chance of a better future no matter what. Humans aren't capable of it. Look at all of human history, violence and cruelty are the only things humans know because humans are nothing more than highly complex animals governed by instinct.

I certainly hope no life ever gets off this earth. Why should it? Humanity will be destroyed eventually, either by our own actions or the forces of nature or the universe like the many exctintion events that have wiped out the majority of life on earth in the past. There's no avoiding that.
 
progeria

progeria

Member
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Jul 18, 2021
Messages
9
Luchs said:
In my eyes the only logical choice is to have kids, give them the best life and all the chances you never had to fight against the tide. If you have no children, then there will be no chance at all that there will ever be a better future. Antinatalism is the definite wrong choice, humans are the only hope for life to get off of earth before the sun blows, looking at the trajectories of birth rates in first world countries and the fact that every developing country will likely follow in a few decades to a century we will have a giant population collapse, which is to be avoided at all cost.
Why try to give your child a better life if you can simply not have children, thereby reducing the child's possible suffering to 0
 
Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
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376
demuic said:
How many people go into having kids with the intention to give them the best life ever but end up fucking them up anyway?

There's no chance of a better future no matter what. Humans aren't capable of it. Look at all of human history, violence and cruelty are the only things humans know because humans are nothing more than highly complex animals governed by instinct.

I certainly hope no life ever gets off this earth. Why should it? Humanity will be destroyed eventually, either by our own actions or the forces of nature or the universe like the many exctintion events that have wiped out the majority of life on earth in the past. There's no avoiding that.
Life is cruel yes, but it is wonderful. If life dies out and there is nothing sapient, or even sentient observing it, then it might as well not exist. The last time the last creature closes its eyes is the point in time at which the universe dies. Yes, many people wanted to give their kids the best life but failed, but the risk of failure is not a reason not to do it, it is not like life has never gotten better, quality of life has vastly improved. Yes, humans are just instinctual animals, but I think the best way to proceed is to live with that and embrace it, work around it instead of suppressing it. You say it like being an animal is a bad thing.
 
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Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
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progeria said:
Why try to give your child a better life if you can simply not have children, thereby reducing the child's possible suffering to 0
You are also eliminating every chance that life in the future will ever get better for your descendants, from our human viewpoint the rest of time is pretty much infinite, so the chance that suffering and happiness balance themselves out or that happiness even prevails is pretty high I'd say. Humans are problem solvers, the longer we have time, the more problems we can solve and the better we can work at solving them. If I just give up now my suffering will have been in vain, but if I have children and suffer through life, to give them life and after ten generations or even one hundred we have a good life for the majority of people, then I will have suffered for a purpose, then I can die with the satisfaction of knowing that at least I tried, that I did my best for a brighter future. While to me life seems like eternal torture, I know that I am in the minority and that most people aren't emotionally crippled idiots and can still experience happiness. I'd agree with you if every living minute of every human was torture and suffering, then it'd make sense to simply die, but that isn't the case, I think.
hotelbeneathground said:
Something that's cruel can't be wonderful
I see the world as not just black and white, happy moments can be sad, there can be wonderful things that are cruel, peacful things that infuriate someone. Just because something carries two conflicting emotions doesn't mean it can't be real.
hotelbeneathground said:
Why? What's so precious about human beings & life in general?
Life is existance. The world around us only exists because we percieve it in our heads, if there is no human or animal to bear witness to the world it might as well have just gone up in smoke. Does a tree make a sound when it falls and no one can hear it? The truth is, does it even matter?
 
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progeria

progeria

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9
Luchs said:
Life is cruel yes, but it is wonderful. If life dies out and there is nothing sapient, or even sentient observing it, then it might as well not exist. The last time the last creature closes its eyes is the point in time at which the universe dies. Yes, many people wanted to give their kids the best life but failed, but the risk of failure is not a reason not to do it, it is not like life has never gotten better, quality of life has vastly improved. Yes, humans are just instinctual animals, but I think the best way to proceed is to live with that and embrace it, work around it instead of suppressing it. You say it like being an animal is a bad thing.
Not being born at the same time is beautiful and not cruel
 
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Luchs

Luchs

kristallene Bergluft über verfallener Gruft
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376
progeria said:
Not being born at the same time is beautiful and not cruel
I wouldn't say it is beautiful, it is nothing. In the vast majority of cases the world only loses something if someone isn't born, but I'd say that the question of wether you are born or not is a neutral one. The cruelty only comes into play later on.
 
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progeria

progeria

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Luchs said:
I wouldn't say it is beautiful, it is nothing. In the vast majority of cases the world only loses something if someone isn't born, but I'd say that the question of wether you are born or not is a neutral one. The cruelty only comes into play later on.
For me, the lack of at least the slightest prospect of suffering is already something wonderful and the greatest gift that I can give my unborn children.
 
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demuic

demuic

Life was a mistake
Joined
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829
Luchs said:
Life is cruel yes, but it is wonderful. If life dies out and there is nothing sapient, or even sentient observing it, then it might as well not exist. The last time the last creature closes its eyes is the point in time at which the universe dies. Yes, many people wanted to give their kids the best life but failed, but the risk of failure is not a reason not to do it, it is not like life has never gotten better, quality of life has vastly improved. Yes, humans are just instinctual animals, but I think the best way to proceed is to live with that and embrace it, work around it instead of suppressing it. You say it like being an animal is a bad thing.
Luchs said:
You are also eliminating every chance that life in the future will ever get better for your descendants, from our human viewpoint the rest of time is pretty much infinite, so the chance that suffering and happiness balance themselves out or that happiness even prevails is pretty high I'd say. Humans are problem solvers, the longer we have time, the more problems we can solve and the better we can work at solving them. If I just give up now my suffering will have been in vain, but if I have children and suffer through life, to give them life and after ten generations or even one hundred we have a good life for the majority of people, then I will have suffered for a purpose, then I can die with the satisfaction of knowing that at least I tried, that I did my best for a brighter future. While to me life seems like eternal torture, I know that I am in the minority and that most people aren't emotionally crippled idiots and can still experience happiness. I'd agree with you if every living minute of every human was torture and suffering, then it'd make sense to simply die, but that isn't the case, I think.

I see the world as not just black and white, happy moments can be sad, there can be wonderful things that are cruel, peacful things that infuriate someone. Just because something carries two conflicting emotions doesn't mean it can't be real.
Humans have existed for thousands of years. If we were capable of being any better we would've by now. This point of history is only a tiny sliver of how long humans have existed, and even other civilizations have collapsed and descended from their heights within the timespan of written history. Humans won't be around infinitely. There's no reason to think things will ever be any different. We get more fancy technology but the bare bones nature of humans has never changed.

Being an animal is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, it's simply a fact, and the reason why there's no working around your instincts. People are governed by them whether they like it or not. We've seen what the result of human instinct is and that is cruelty, abuse, torture, murder, rape, prejudice, selfishness, etc. There's no getting rid of these things.

Your suffering is already in vain. You won't get to experience any satisfaction you may get from your descendants 10 generations out hypothetically experiencing a good life in the future because you won't exist. How is creating more humans contributing to a brighter future? For all you know your children could be psychopaths or mass murderers, people who make the world a worse place. There's no grand purpose behind suffering, it's just an inevitable side effect of any kind of life.

Luchs said:
Life is existance. The world around us only exists because we percieve it in our heads, if there is no human or animal to bear witness to the world it might as well have just gone up in smoke. Does a tree make a sound when it falls and no one can hear it? The truth is, does it even matter?
So?
 
Flippy

Flippy

Listening to the Air Conditioner Hum
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474
whywere said:
My heart broke in two pieces when I read about how you were also treated. I am so sorry for you as I know what it is like. Also, THANK YOU so, so much for the very kind thoughts, I really appreciate it very much! I can so understand where you are coming from as far as people are so judgmental about something and they have no idea at all why and it is none of their business, but they always have a opinion anyway. Like when my "parents" died, my "dad" first then my "mom" a few years latter. People were beyond horrified when I did not show up both of their funerals. I did not show up because both my siblings sent me emails stating that I was NOT welcome at all, and do not show up and start a scene, so I did not. Of course I was the poster child from hell, as far as the community thought since I did not attend. I send you so many huge hugs and love as we are family here and there in again it just makes me so sad to hear also how you were treated. You are a fantastic person and never let anyone tell you different. Walter
Thank you also for your kind words! :-) Sadly people who had wonderful, or even just adequate parents, or heck maybe even slightly less than adequate really can't understand why a child won't speak to their mother. My theory is that when they run the scenario through their brain the only reference for a mother they have is their own. And who could be so "cruel" to such a person!!? They just don't even begin to get it!

My childhood and adolescence basically was so inconsistent. Things could go from almost (and all too briefly) ok, to a absolute living nightmare at the drop of a hat. Actually the better things got the more likely it would be that my mother would engage in her scorched earth rage episodes that would go on for weeks if not months sometimes. Then eventually things would return to some sort of bearable for a while and the cycle would repeat.

She only got worse over the years, taking drugs and drinking all the time. When I was very young and at the time, an only child, things were nice. The truth is my mother wanted a child as she wanted unconditional affection and validation. I learned early on I had to tell her how much prettier than other women she was, how much nicer she was than other mothers etc etc. In her mind it seems that was my function. I think the only thing that she would have preferred was that I wasn't male.

I think in her warped mind I had betrayed her by not being the right gender. Anything she considered "masculine" she rejected in me. I wasn't allowed to play certain games with other boys, I wasn't allowed toy guns for example. I can imagine a few people are probably thinking "so what, guns are bad" and yeah, that may be true. On the other hand, try being a young kid who can't play "cowboys and Indians" with the other boys.

It may seem like a small thing but its pretty damn significant to a 3-4 year old. I wasn't allowed action figures, basically any of the sorts of things little boys like to play with. I didn't have them, I felt ashamed wanting them and was excluded as I didn't have the right piece of plastic to join in. So I got used to being the outsider and rejected.

Then my sister was born and my mother had what she wanted, a little girl to live vicariously through. She was the golden child. Basically as far as my mother was concerned the novelty of my existence had worn off. My sister was the second coming of Christ, as far as she was concerned, only better because she wasn't a stinky boy lol!

So like you, I can understand how much of a horrible indictment of your very being when you have the nerve to have been born with a Y chromosome. Of course there are parents that are just as pissed when their child is born with a pair of X chromosomes. It's just unacceptable to behave that way, when it comes to having kids, you get what you are given.

Basically I grew up feeling so ashamed of being male. My mother treated me like a malfunctioning female. Any traits considered "male" or "masculine" were condemned and characterised as serious flaws. I didn't fit in with the other kids at school as I was too much of a "sissy", the other thing that didn't help was that I was (and I'm not bragging here, it's certainly not true anymore) a very "pretty" androgynous looking kid. I was a prime target for bullies, but I could also tell that teachers and other adults were a bit freaked out by me.

Since I've gotten away from her I have probably become more like "myself". Things are much better in a lot of ways. But, it's not enough. The trauma caused by all the shit has damaged me. If I had just been allowed to be myself, my relationships with other people would have been better and that would have had a cumulative positive effect on my trajectory through life.

Sorry, I know I've written quite a lot here. I just know how that feels, to not be the right gender for a parent/parents and I guess I get rather triggered by it. I'm sorry you experienced this too :-(
 
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Flippy said:
Thank you also for your kind words! :-) Sadly people who had wonderful, or even just adequate parents, or heck maybe even slightly less than adequate really can't understand why a child won't speak to their mother. My theory is that when they run the scenario through their brain the only reference for a mother they have is their own. And who could be so "cruel" to such a person!!? They just don't even begin to get it!

My childhood and adolescence basically was so inconsistent. Things could go from almost (and all too briefly) ok, to a absolute living nightmare at the drop of a hat. Actually the better things got the more likely it would be that my mother would engage in her scorched earth rage episodes that would go on for weeks if not months sometimes. Then eventually things would return to some sort of bearable for a while and the cycle would repeat.

She only got worse over the years, taking drugs and drinking all the time. When I was very young and at the time, an only child, things were nice. The truth is my mother wanted a child as she wanted unconditional affection and validation. I learned early on I had to tell her how much prettier than other women she was, how much nicer she was than other mothers etc etc. In her mind it seems that was my function. I think the only thing that she would have preferred was that I wasn't male.

I think in her warped mind I had betrayed her by not being the right gender. Anything she considered "masculine" she rejected in me. I wasn't allowed to play certain games with other boys, I wasn't allowed toy guns for example. I can imagine a few people are probably thinking "so what, guns are bad" and yeah, that may be true. On the other hand, try being a young kid who can't play "cowboys and Indians" with the other boys.

It may seem like a small thing but its pretty damn significant to a 3-4 year old. I wasn't allowed action figures, basically any of the sorts of things little boys like to play with. I didn't have them, I felt ashamed wanting them and was excluded as I didn't have the right piece of plastic to join in. So I got used to being the outsider and rejected.

Then my sister was born and my mother had what she wanted, a little girl to live vicariously through. She was the golden child. Basically as far as my mother was concerned the novelty of my existence had worn off. My sister was the second coming of Christ, as far as she was concerned, only better because she wasn't a stinky boy lol!

So like you, I can understand how much of a horrible indictment of your very being when you have the nerve to have been born with a Y chromosome. Of course there are parents that are just as pissed when their child is born with a pair of X chromosomes. It's just unacceptable to behave that way, when it comes to having kids, you get what you are given.

Basically I grew up feeling so ashamed of being male. My mother treated me like a malfunctioning female. Any traits considered "male" or "masculine" were condemned and characterised as serious flaws. I didn't fit in with the other kids at school as I was too much of a "sissy", the other thing that didn't help was that I was (and I'm not bragging here, it's certainly not true anymore) a very "pretty" androgynous looking kid. I was a prime target for bullies, but I could also tell that teachers and other adults were a bit freaked out by me.

Since I've gotten away from her I have probably become more like "myself". Things are much better in a lot of ways. But, it's not enough. The trauma caused by all the shit has damaged me. If I had just been allowed to be myself, my relationships with other people would have been better and that would have had a cumulative positive effect on my trajectory through life.

Sorry, I know I've written quite a lot here. I just know how that feels, to not be the right gender for a parent/parents and I guess I get rather triggered by it. I'm sorry you experienced this too :-(
I am crying reading your post as it makes me so, so sad and sorry for you and also it brings back crappy memories for me. Sometimes when my "dad" would get mad at me, like ever second, he would say this: "your mother all most died having your younger sister and it is you fault because you were not born a girl". I like you, and I am 65, is still messed up because of the way my "parents" treated. Now I am NOT a pity-party person, but so many people can not understand the mental baggage that I carry because of that kid of abuse so long ago.

I truly am your brother in this aspect and I will NEVER forget how nice you have been to me. YOU are the very first person ever who understands the hell that I went through. You also went through so much hell and it hits home to me, actually to the core of my being.

I send you all the huge hugs, love and kindness in the world as you are such a kind and thoughtful person.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!!

Walter
 
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Schöngeist

Schöngeist

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Ch92921 said:
Why we have children? Because its in our instinct to procreate. Its in our genes
An instinct cannot be translated into a rational desire, i.e. the existence of an instinct to procreate does not imply that procreation is rational, just as the existence of a survival instinct does not imply that it is rational to stay alive.
An often cited argument is that suicidal people are mentally ill, because the wish to die conflicts with the survival instinct. This argument hinges on the belief that your instincts have our best interest in mind, whereas they couldn't care less; our instincts are interested in survival and nothing else.
greyhound said:
Yes I agree that if it was less stigmatized and more was known about consciousness then more would certainly commit suicide. But I think the numbers would still be relatively low.
I disagree. If cheap, fast, painless euthanasia became widely available (it won't), people would queue up. The suicidal are not some tiny minority of mentally ill weirdos. The reason why suicide numbers are as low as they are is due to the ineffectiveness of most methods and the inability to overcome the survival instinct.
greyhound said:
I think evolution has honed the tradeoff between pain and pleasure pretty well.
I will quote something I just wrote elsewhere:

If it were possible to objectively rate positive experiences and negative experiences on a scale from 1 to 10, a negative experience of order 7 would have a much bigger impact than a positive experience of the same magnitude.

An example: A couple has a child which dies of an accident at the age of 5. They now might want to try to create a new child in order to compensate for the loss. For the sake of the argument, let us assume that the new child turns out very similar to the deceased child. From a logical point of view, these two events (birth of a child/ death of a child) have the same value, so we should achieve a net neutral, but we all know that the parents will forever mourn the loss of their first child, no matter how much happiness the second one brings them; they will never achieve a "neutral" existence.

There is a reason why negative experiences figure more prominently in our perception than positive experiences. In order to achieve a positive experience, most of the time one has to work/take action/exert effort to reach the goal. Once the positive experience is achieved, no further action, or at least less action, is necessary. It is the inverse problem with negative experiences: one does not have to exert any effort to achieve a negative experience, since negative experiences are not something one would want to achieve in the first place; they merely happen. Once the negative experience occurs, one has to work/take action/exert effort to overcome it/make it go away/resolve the issue. One could argue that these two are equivalent: The absence of a positive experience is a negative experience and the resolution of a negative experience is a positive experience.

Either way, the point is this: Negative experiences induce a need for taking action, whereas positive experiences are preceded by action. While there is usually some kind of intrinsic motivation to exert efforts in order to achieve a positive experience, the motivation to take action to overcome a negative experience are always forced upon one, i.e. extrinsic.

An example: Winning the lottery or receiving a promotion does not necessitate action on one’s own part; they might be preceded by efforts, but they do not induce the need for any. On the other hand, losing a lot of money or losing one’s job leaves one no choice but to act. Therefore, negative experiences are inherently perceived as more unpleasant and affect us greater than positive experiences.

Here is the Hotel-Man's addendum:

The negativity bias/effect. Things of a more negative nature have a greater effect on our psychological state than neutral or positive things. Those of our miserable ancestors who paid more attention to the bad/dangerous shit around them were more likely to survive.

One more wonderful fact about our brains: they're wired to take the good things in our lives for granted.

greyhound said:
Humanity has persisted after all up until this point through some fairly difficult conditions in the past.
That does not mean that it was rational/in their best interest to do so. It was completely instinctual.
greyhound said:
But it's known that depressed people often cannot see outside of their distorted perspective.
Is that really known? According to whom? Psychiatrists? This entire discipline is a mere tool to keep neurological outliers in check and make them into obedient cogs in the machine (also known as "contributing members of society"). Besides, who says that non depressed people cannot see outside of their optimistically distorted perspective? Something being common does not make it correct.
Luchs said:
I'm all for a test and a list of requirements you should have to meet before having kids. Stuff like not carrying a debilitating genetic disorder, earning enough to support the child, being mentally well enough to take care of it, not being in a bad relationship of any kind, etc.
Once again, I will quote myself:

Isn't it odd?
Everything in modern society is heavily regulated: You need a permission to build a house or to drive a car, there are noise regulations that prohibit you from doing what you want on your own property, yet every goon can (and does) procreate. If you timidly propose that some regulation, however slight, might be in order, you will be branded an eugenicist in an outcry of outrage.
Somehow, demanding that something as serious as creating a new human being is held to a certain standard seems to cross a line.
Apparently everyone is entitled to offspring, but not to housing, food, health service or other vital resources that are essential for every human being once it exists.
Why?
Housing, food, health service etc. require money, whereas everyone can make a child for free. Hence, many people don't oppose mindless procreation, since it doesn't cost them; only when the child thus conceived begins to make demands does it becomes a nuisance.
Luckily, most people in modern society have erected a wall of ignorance which prevents them from being bothered by other people's problems, even if these might have negative consequences for themselves in the future.
What about abusive and mentally ill parents?
"Well, that's not my problem!" they say, until it is and the child becomes a criminal, a homeless or simply a society dropout.
Luckily, these aren't real problems:
Criminals will rot in prison, irrespective of the circumstances getting them there; what's the point of investing in people early in life if you can simply punish them once things take a wrong turn later on?
As long as the homeless don't hang out in your favourite park, they are of no bother, and if the society dropout doesn't use up too many resources, he can be easily ignored as well.
Either way, if people don't like the life they have been gifted, they can simply kill themselves; it's that simple!
It is far more important to preserve the essential right of procreation; God forbid that the human race might go extinct!
Von Linné revealed a delicious sense of humour in branding humans "homo sapiens sapiens".

Luchs said:
In my eyes the only logical choice is to have kids, give them the best life and all the chances you never had to fight against the tide. If you have no children, then there will be no chance at all that there will ever be a better future. Antinatalism is the definite wrong choice, humans are the only hope for life to get off of earth before the sun blows, looking at the trajectories of birth rates in first world countries and the fact that every developing country will likely follow in a few decades to a century we will have a giant population collapse, which is to be avoided at all cost.
"A child that deviates from the norm? No, that only happens to other people.
My child will be mentally and physically healthy, intelligent, disciplined, well behaved,
good at sports, handsome, and popular. Once it grows up, it will become a doctor
and then go on to cure cancer and give me four grandchildren.
What do you say? Raising a child like that requires effort, dedication, time, a stable environment,
financial resources, and genetics also play a role?
Nonsense! It's my right to have a child, so I will have one! I don't care about your concerns!
I must continue my bloodline so that my legacy can live on; we're biologically programmed to
procreate; it gives your life meaning; the human race mustn't die out; everyone has children!
Adoption? I'm not going to raise another man's child; how could I possibly bond with it?"

How is it logical to have children? What is your premise you derive this conclusion from? Why do you want to get off the earth before it explodes? Why must humanity be preserved at any cost?

Luchs said:
The last time the last creature closes its eyes is the point in time at which the universe dies.
Why is that bad?
Luchs said:
You are also eliminating every chance that life in the future will ever get better for your descendants, from our human viewpoint the rest of time is pretty much infinite, so the chance that suffering and happiness balance themselves out or that happiness even prevails is pretty high I'd say.
Wrong. Life consists fundamentally of suffering. If you sit down and don't do anything, you will die of starvation and dehydration.
If you eat and drink, but don't do anything else, you will go insane from lack of mental exercise and suffer horribly from lack of physical exercise.
Essentially, your entire life consists of conscious and unconscious effort to avoid suffering; you have to work all the time to at least live a neutral existence. This leads to the conclusion that life is mainly bad with good parts in between. Every good thing is merely a temporary respite from suffering, since eventually everything will revert to the baseline (suffering).

An example: A person who hungered and finds food will temporary appease its hunger, but is forced to find new food again.

Luchs said:
Humans are problem solvers, the longer we have time, the more problems we can solve and the better we can work at solving them.
Every living organism is a problem solver. That's what life is about: solving the problems of self preservation. Problems only exist because life exists, and life consists essentially of the task of solving the problems of self preservation. These problems do not have definitive solutions, but can merely be temporarily mitigated. Mankind constantly tries to solve problems, yet for every solution a myriad of new problems arise. It is impossible to solve all of life's problems, and trying to do so is an exercise in futility. If mankind went extinct, the need for solutions of any kind were rendered obsolete.
Luchs said:
If I just give up now my suffering will have been in vain, but if I have children and suffer through life, to give them life and after ten generations or even one hundred we have a good life for the majority of people, then I will have suffered for a purpose, then I can die with the satisfaction of knowing that at least I tried, that I did my best for a brighter future.

Life is existance. The world around us only exists because we percieve it in our heads, if there is no human or animal to bear witness to the world it might as well have just gone up in smoke.
This is self delusion. You need to accept that there is no point to any of this, no matter what you do.
Luchs said:
I know that [...] most people aren't emotionally crippled idiots and can still experience happiness.
Rude.
 
Luchs

Luchs

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"A child that deviates from the norm? No, that only happens to other people.
My child will be mentally and physically healthy, intelligent, disciplined, well behaved,
good at sports, handsome, and popular. Once it grows up, it will become a doctor
and then go on to cure cancer and give me four grandchildren.
What do you say? Raising a child like that requires effort, dedication, time, a stable environment,
financial resources, and genetics also play a role?
Nonsense! It's my right to have a child, so I will have one! I don't care about your concerns!
I must continue my bloodline so that my legacy can live on; we're biologically programmed to
procreate; it gives your life meaning; the human race mustn't die out; everyone has children!
Adoption? I'm not going to raise another man's child; how could I possibly bond with it?"
I am fully aware that children can not be perfect, after all I ended up here on this site. I have a damaged lung, am half blind on my left eye and am a depressed, pessimistic piece of shit. But that is exactly why I am all for a eugenics list that people must meet before having kids, so that the risks of serious defects in the child are minimized. Yes, there is always a chance that it'll go wrong, but the way of thinking that if something can go wrong it isn't worth doing is non-productive, you'd be trapped in inaction forever.
Why is that bad?
Because life isn't just endless suffering. For people like me, and I assume you too, since you are on this site, it may seem to be that way, but for the majority of people it isn't. Look at countries like Bhutan, it is one of the most miserable, poorest countries on earth, but the people living there are some of the happiest people on earth. Another good example is my grandmother. She grew up during WW2, some of her first memories are airraid sirens and the thundering of anti aircraft cannons, while bombers droned overhead. The majority of her childhood was spent in the bombed out remains of a ruined country, she lived in poverty for quite some time. But still she says she had a happy childhood and a good life, despite all of that. We just have broken brains that are incapable of observing the good in the world, wether from birth or because someone did something to us, or even just without any good reason our brains are broken. That is why universal extinction, the end of the universe is bad, because if we ask people, if we could ask animals, most would say that the end of existance is not a good thing for them.
Wrong. Life consists fundamentally of suffering. If you sit down and don't do anything, you will die of starvation and dehydration.
If you eat and drink, but don't do anything else, you will go insane from lack of mental exercise and suffer horribly from lack of physical exercise.
Essentially, your entire life consists of conscious and unconscious effort to avoid suffering; you have to work all the time to at least live a neutral existence. This leads to the conclusion that life is mainly bad with good parts in between. Every good thing is merely a temporary respite from suffering, since eventually everything will revert to the baseline (suffering).

An example: A person who hungered and finds food will temporary appease its hunger, but is forced to find new food again.
I don't really see it as suffering, it is only natural that by doing nothing you will die, in most cases that suffering is self-inflicted, because most people today have easy access to basic necessities, that they never have to be thirsty or hungry. Even then, doesn't the happiness of gaining something make up for the suffering you went through to achieve it?
This is self delusion. You need to accept that there is no point to any of this, no matter what you do.
It isn't really though. I'd rather have taken the chance that things may get better, than just giving up. Even if it is just delusional, delusion is needed to succeed. If you go to a job interview and there are ten other people there that want the job too, realistically you won't get it, but you need to have a mindset that you can do it and can make it, because if you go in there expecting not to get it, you won't get it, why even bother then? There most definetly is a point to this, like I said, trying to make life for my children better than it was for me is a good reason to live.
I know that it is rude, that is why it took me so long to accept it, but I realize that I am broken beyond repair and in a reasonable world would be filtered out. I realize that I am one of the problems I so often criticise our modern world for. It is rude, but it is the truth.
Flippy said:
Oh I can't take credit for it sadly! It's a quote from George Orwell! :-)
I read 1984 a few months ago, really it is a horrible vision of the future. Thank god it is only fiction.
 
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greyhound

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Schöngeist said:
I disagree. If cheap, fast, painless euthanasia became widely available (it won't), people would queue up. The suicidal are not some tiny minority of mentally ill weirdos. The reason why suicide numbers are as low as they are is due to the ineffectiveness of most methods and the inability to overcome the survival instinct.
I agree that more terminal patients would opt for euthanasia rather than wait for a natural death. But even then many might not with the availability of hospice care and painkillers at the end of life nowadays.The thing holding most people back from suicide is attachment to people in this life and fear of the unknown / oblivion.
Schöngeist said:
The negativity bias/effect. Things of a more negative nature have a greater effect on our psychological state than neutral or positive things. Those of our miserable ancestors who paid more attention to the bad/dangerous shit around them were more likely to survive.
Yeah Schopenhauer made a similar argument.

Schöngeist said:
Is that really known? According to whom? Psychiatrists? This entire discipline is a mere tool to keep neurological outliers in check and make them into obedient cogs in the machine (also known as "contributing members of society"). Besides, who says that non depressed people cannot see outside of their optimistically distorted perspective? Something being common does not make it correct.

I mean if you reject the use of science to study our minds then I can't really debate this point with you. Just be assured that there is plenty of evidence that depressed people have tunnel vision.
Schöngeist said:
Wrong. Life consists fundamentally of suffering. If you sit down and don't do anything, you will die of starvation and dehydration.
If you eat and drink, but don't do anything else, you will go insane from lack of mental exercise and suffer horribly from lack of physical exercise.
Essentially, your entire life consists of conscious and unconscious effort to avoid suffering; you have to work all the time to at least live a neutral existence. This leads to the conclusion that life is mainly bad with good parts in between. Every good thing is merely a temporary respite from suffering, since eventually everything will revert to the baseline (suffering).

An example: A person who hungered and finds food will temporary appease its hunger, but is forced to find new food again.

But this 'suffering' also gives us drive and purpose, which provide our lives with meaning and fulfillment. The 'suffering' of having a sex drive unfulfilled leads people to find partners, have meaningful relationships and procreate. Something that this thread is universally opposed to, but I would argue from a highly distorted perspective. The fact of the matter is that if you actually conducted a survey the vast majority of people would find life worth living. It's only the bottom 10% or so that are actively suicidal. If all you do is listen to that 10% your perspective is going to be wildly distorted.
 
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