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Ben

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Sep 12, 2018
785
Props to the mods first of all, because I can already see how hard it would be to manage a site with such a sensitive subject.

My question is, what’s the generally acceptable mentality here when comforting a user on their want to KTB?

Me personally? I value life. Do I value my life? Hell fuckin no, but I’m not ignorant enough to ignore that life DOES work out for some people. If a iuser wants to die, I support that. I will do the best I can to assist you in completing your goal of ending your life.

But, I see some users here with the mentality that life has no value to them, regardless of who it belongs to. That is scary to me. Like, serial killer scary. I understand and agree with every reason you could tell me for wanting to end your own life...but when people say stuff like people should never be born....it kind of seems like they have zero care for anybody else.

Am I the only user who feels that it is a toxic mentality that should not be supported here? If YOU want to die, you have every right to die. I’ll help you defend your reasons to the very end...but when people say a child should never be born to spare them from this world? Like...do they not understand that not everyone gets fucked over like we do?

I’m not saying That anybody with a different opinion than me is wrong. If you think all life is pointless, then I know it’s pointless to try and convince you otherwise. And it’s not like your wrong either! Shit, I’m here with you, I agree that life can be pointless, I just don’t think it’s a fact that applies to everyone on earth.


If a user here expresses their want to KTB, I will support their efforts the best way I can. I think I’ve already shown that.

If a user here expresses that there is a possibility they may not want to end their life, I will encourage them to live. If, and when, they hit the point of death being their only option, I’ll hold their god damn hand through it...

But I refuse to agree that life is inherently worthless. We all got fucked over. We all have to deal with the shitty side of life while everyone lives in bliss...but I’m not trying to take down a happy person with me.

If somebody is happy, let them be happy.

If somebody is sad, let them be sad.

At the end of the day, I DONT want everyone on earth to die. There are people who will live fufulling lives here, so to say they don’t deserve that, or it’s unfair, it’s fuckin petty.

We have our own circle here, so let’s not shit on people who tried to find their place in life and succeed.
 
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Ben

-
Sep 12, 2018
785
I’m going to bump my own thread with a reply because I really want the users I’m subliminally referencing to come to this thread and back up why they think all life is pointless.

I made this thread in hopes on being engaged in a conversation that could enlighten me on the other point of view...but I’ve yet to get a response like that...despite me knowing there are multiple users on this forum that would disagree with me.


Where you at? I’m calling you out, come here and defend your opinion that all life is worthless.

I’m not a user who cannot accept another’s opinion, I’m very understanding.

But, if you feel life has no meaning to anybody, I encourage you to reply to me and try to change my mind.
 
B

Ben

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Sep 12, 2018
785
start by liking all of my post and reply to all of my witty, insightful self indulgence

I reply to everyone. I like every Comment I have a reply to. I’m callling out the people
Who think life means nothing to anybody.

Life means nothing to us, i agree with that, but I would love to hear somebody’s justification for ending the life of somebody who enjoys their time on earth.

This thread is calling out everyone who thinks all life is pointless.

I’ve yet to have a user reply to this call out, and I doubt I ever will.

If I do, fucking awesome, because I’ll have a chance to support my opinions while somebody tries to discredit them. And I would LOVE if my mind got changed.

My KTB experience would be much easier if I believed life was a scam from the get go
 
Caustic Cardinals

Caustic Cardinals

Enlightened
Sep 1, 2018
1,340
I reply to everyone. I like every Comment I have a reply to. I’m callling out the people
Who think life means nothing to anybody.

Life means nothing to us, i agree with that, but I would love to hear somebody’s justification for ending the life of somebody who enjoys their time on earth.

This thread is calling out everyone who thinks all life is pointless.

I’ve yet to have a user reply to this call out, and I doubt I ever will.

If I do, fucking awesome, because I’ll have a chance to support my opinions while somebody tries to discredit them. And I would LOVE if my mind got changed.

My KTB experience would be much easier if I believed life was a scam from the get go


KTB?
 
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RM5998

RM5998

Sack of Meat
Sep 3, 2018
2,206
@Caustic Cardinals living up to her name here.

Well, about the nihilism thing... the point of that angle is to assert that value systems are constructs, and have no reality apart from being in the minds of the people implementing them. The post-modernist idea of there being no objective truth is the closest literary analogue. The most common version of nihilism that you'll see is the existential kind (named so because it is derived from existentialism).

I'd suggest reading Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil without bias for a primer. The ideas proposed therein amount to taking responsibility for having created morality, and utilizing our power to change it to get a better world. Moving on, existentialist ideas from Sartre and Heidegger make for good further reading. Camus is also a good source. considering the topic of this site. (Heidegger was the nihilist among these three.) Max Stirner also makes a good read, as he's one of the first philosophers proposing nihilism.

The way most nihilists see the world amounts to this - everything that is assigned value has received it from societal perception, not from some eternal source of meaning. Our lives have no inherent meaning or value - key word being inherent. We assign value to stuff because of what our mental constructs decide is important. We give value to stuff, and nihilists choose to not give it to much apart from what brings pleasure. And even then, there remains an awareness of the nature of the construct.

You're free to believe that life has value, but the point of nihilism is that there is no inherent value there - it's only there because you believe in it. Some of us don't believe in giving value to life in general (most nihilists fall into this group).

Morality is often constructed out of deontological principles, and thus clashes with this philosophical perspective badly. Utilitarian ethics is more in line with that position.
 
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Ben

-
Sep 12, 2018
785
@Caustic Cardinals living up to her name here.

Well, about the nihilism thing... the point of that angle is to assert that value systems are constructs, and have no reality apart from being in the minds of the people implementing them. The post-modernist idea of there being no objective truth is the closest literary analogue. The most common version of nihilism that you'll see is the existential kind (named so because it is derived from existentialism).

I'd suggest reading Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil without bias for a primer. The ideas proposed therein amount to taking responsibility for having created morality, and utilizing our power to change it to get a better world. Moving on, existentialist ideas from Sartre and Heidegger make for good further reading. Camus is also a good source. considering the topic of this site. (Heidegger was the nihilist among these three.) Max Stirner also makes a good read, as he's one of the first philosophers proposing nihilism.

The way most nihilists see the world amounts to this - everything that is assigned value has received it from societal perception, not from some eternal source of meaning. Our lives have no inherent meaning or value - key word being inherent. We assign value to stuff because of what our mental constructs decide is important. We give value to stuff, and nihilists choose to not give it to much apart from what brings pleasure. And even then, there remains an awareness of the nature of the construct.

You're free to believe that life has value, but the point of nihilism is that there is no inherent value there - it's only there because you believe in it. Some of us don't believe in giving value to life in general (most nihilists fall into this group).

Morality is often constructed out of deontological principles, and thus clashes with this philosophical perspective badly. Utilitarian ethics is more in line with that position.

Holy shit....

That’s my favourite thing I’ve read on this entire site even though it goes against my
Own morals...

I literally have nothing that I can say to that. You explained your opinion so clearly, and justifiable, that I can’t even think of how to respond to that with my own opinion...

@RM5998...I have tremendous respect for how you look at things. Rather then get into how many meaningless points we could disagree on...I rather just let your comment stand for what it is.

RM5998 wins. He explained his opinion so clearly and respectful, that it would be disrespectful to try and comprehend what he said as negative.

Props, you’re my new favourite user lol
 
RM5998

RM5998

Sack of Meat
Sep 3, 2018
2,206
Holy shit....

That’s my favourite thing I’ve read on this entire site even though it goes against my
Own morals...

I literally have nothing that I can say to that. You explained your opinion so clearly, and justifiable, that I can’t even think of how to respond to that with my own opinion...

@RM5998...I have tremendous respect for how you look at things. Rather then get into how many meaningless points we could disagree on...I rather just let your comment stand for what it is.

RM5998 wins. He explained his opinion so clearly and respectful, that it would be disrespectful to try and comprehend what he said as negative.

Props, you’re my new favourite user lol

Thanks a lot, @Ben. It means a lot to hear that kind of praise from someone. (Although I don't really subscribe to the winning part - this is a discussion, after all.)

Nietzsche has a much maligned saying:

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"
- Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Section 125, tr. Walter Kaufmann​

Most people stop at the part "And we have killed him." But the real kicker comes at where the section here ends. The idea isn't to abandon morality entirely, but to restructure it with our own hands and be aware of it, to make the world what we would want it to be. The Übermensch, as proposed by Nietzsche, is a man who can do this - be one worthy of constructing a morality in the wake of the dead God we used to believe in. To me, that's what makes the philosophy so empowering - it allows us to define ourselves as worthy of building the world as we see fit - if you can shoulder the responsibility that was once God's.
 
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Ben

-
Sep 12, 2018
785
Thanks a lot, @Ben. It means a lot to hear that kind of praise from someone. (Although I don't really subscribe to the winning part - this is a discussion, after all.)

Nietzsche has a much maligned saying:

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"
- Nietzsche, The Gay Science, Section 125, tr. Walter Kaufmann​

Most people stop at the part "And we have killed him." But the real kicker comes at where the section here ends. The idea isn't to abandon morality entirely, but to restructure it with our own hands and be aware of it, to make the world what we would want it to be. The Übermensch, as proposed by Nietzsche, is a man who can do this - be one worthy of constructing a morality in the wake of the dead God we used to believe in. To me, that's what makes the philosophy so empowering - it allows us to define ourselves as worthy of building the world as we see fit - if you can shoulder the responsibility that was once God's.

...brilliant
 
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MissLisa

MissLisa

Student
Sep 13, 2018
138
I know what you are saying. I want people to be happy, if them being happy means dying then so be it, I'm not going to be happy about it or want them to hurry up. I would want them to be 100% sure, with no egging on by anyone. I don't know any of you but when I see a goodbye post it does make me sad (And a little jealous) I just wish that life could have been better for everyone. I would also recommend if anyone had any doubt about suicide then don't do it, be 100% sure for yourself, don't be pushed into it by people on here. If you hesitate then understand why, is it because there is a glimmer of hope for help? I know what you mean by some posters on here. Some goodbye posts seem to have people saying do it now or you might change your mind. Don't come back if you don't do it etc. Everyone has a right to change there mind, they can change it 100 times. It is their choice to make and one you have to get right, no changing your mind when you have gone.
 
Clover

Clover

Experienced
Aug 23, 2018
270
I know many people who love life and value it. Close friends who have beaten cancer or watched their child die. I fully understand and respect that they have a life worth living and would never diss that.
I would also never encourage anyone to CTB if they have doubts about it or if there situation is one that could be improved with the right help.

My own personal desire to die is my own and only applies to my life.

I want others to be happy and to have a good life.

I will also support people who feel as I do about wanting to end their life but I will never encourage or persuade them to do anything either.
 
S

SomeGuyDK

-
Sep 17, 2018
31
Am I the only user who feels that it is a toxic mentality that should not be supported here? If YOU want to die, you have every right to die. I’ll help you defend your reasons to the very end...but when people say a child should never be born to spare them from this world? Like...do they not understand that not everyone gets fucked over like we do?

People do live positive lives, but the world seems to be designed in a way, where extreme suffering more than counteracts extreme good.

An example: If you could create a world with 1 million blissful people, but for this to function some child had to be tortured daily, be utterly alone but still be just barely kept alive, so it could perceive all the suffering as long as the world exists. Would you create this world? If not, you do acknowledge there is some kind of discrepancy between happiness and suffering.

When I choose not to have a child, it is not because of the average expected outcome, but because of the outliers, where my potential child would experience extreme suffering.
 
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RM5998

RM5998

Sack of Meat
Sep 3, 2018
2,206
When I choose not to have a child, it is not because of the average expected outcome, but because of the outliers, where my potential child would experience extreme suffering.

Do you appeal to a deontological categorical imperative there, or is it just for risk avoidance? (I don't want to imply one option is better or worse, but I want to know what the guiding principle was there.)
 
S

SomeGuyDK

-
Sep 17, 2018
31
Do you appeal to a deontological categorical imperative there, or is it just for risk avoidance? (I don't want to imply one option is better or worse, but I want to know what the guiding principle was there.)

Risk avoidance. I identify myself as some kind of negative utilitarian, although I don't believe in objective morality and am an absolute skeptic at heart.
 
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B

Ben

-
Sep 12, 2018
785
People do live positive lives, but the world seems to be designed in a way, where extreme suffering more than counteracts extreme good.

An example: If you could create a world with 1 million blissful people, but for this to function some child had to be tortured daily, be utterly alone but still be just barely kept alive, so it could perceive all the suffering as long as the world exists. Would you create this world? If not, you do acknowledge there is some kind of discrepancy between happiness and suffering.

When I choose not to have a child, it is not because of the average expected outcome, but because of the outliers, where my potential child would experience extreme suffering.

That’s a interesting question, I’ll give you that. It’s kind of loaded though, I don’t like ether option, I wouldn’t be able to answer that hypothetical question without going against my morals. I belive that question is a good way to express how you feel, but pointless for somebody with a different opinion to answer.

I don’t entertain hypothetical senarios when considering my stance on the value of life. The fact is, a child could live a great life, or they could live a bad one. They could have every advantage going for them, or they could have none. They could grow up a happy person, or end up like us. We lost the battle sure, but some people can thrive at the game called life. Because of this, I think it’s all the other variables life throws at you that are to blame, not life itself
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
If you think that life itself has any value, and the cancer must spread ad nauseam until inevitable extinction, watch this video

I believe in mathematics. And I believe that life is a business that does not cover the costs. No matter how rich or lucky you are, the suffering in your life will outnumber the happiness. I'm not saying everyone should kill himself though.
 
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B

Ben

-
Sep 12, 2018
785
If you think that life itself has any value, and the cancer must spread ad nauseam until inevitable extinction, watch this video

I believe in mathematics. And I believe that life is a business that does not cover the costs. No matter how rich or lucky you are, the suffering in your life will outnumber the happiness. I'm not saying everyone should kill himself though.


I don’t want to watch that video. You are entitled to feel how you want to feel, I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, only express my own. I doubt you’ll ever be able to change my opinion on life, I’ve pondered about it inside for a lot longer then that video is. Exposing myself to the other side of the argument won’t work. My own points have to fail to make sense to me, and they don’t. I don’t take a strong stance on something I could be easily swayed on. If you see somebody who think life has value, why are you bother to try and change their mind? Are you not happy unless everyone’s thinks they should die?
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
I don’t want to watch that video. You are entitled to feel how you want to feel, I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, only express my own. I doubt you’ll ever be able to change my opinion on life, I’ve pondered about it inside for a lot longer then that video is. If you see somebody who think life has value, why are you bother to try and change their mind? Are you not happy unless everyone’s thinks like you?
Why do you think life does have value though? Do you realize that every person that has ever been born had more unpleasant experiences than pleasant ones? I have some memories in my life that I wouldn't give away for anything, but that's just brain chemistry. It's the dopamine, not my life experiences themselves that I value. But I respect your opinion.
 
B

Ben

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Sep 12, 2018
785
Why do you think life does have value though? Do you realize that every person that has ever been born had more unpleasant experiences than pleasant ones? I have some memories in my life that I wouldn't give away for anything, but that's just brain chemistry. It's the dopamine, not my life experiences themselves that I value. But I respect your opinion.

But you admit some people have pleasant ones...so why take that from them? If 80% of us have it shitty, fuck the other 20% too?

The one thing I think we can agreed upon, is those who want to die, have the right to die. Let’s focus on common ground from now on :)
 
Circles

Circles

There's a difference between existing and living.
Sep 3, 2018
1,717
You sound like a guy I argued with discussing the same topic. He kept saying 'If you don't value consciousness you don't value anything'. My rebuttal was that for one I did not ask to be born and I sure as hell don't value a life that will regardless be a losing game until I finally die.

Also what do you mean by fulfilling lives? Everything humans do is to eliminate the negatives in life however brief and end up going back to do the same life script bullshit just to block the boredom. It's an existential problem where all we can do is hedonism and humanism when we confront the void. So at best we can enjoy our lives and make other people's lives better for a brief moment. You said the ones with such fullness lives in bliss which I might add isn't true. They still have to eliminate the negatives like hunger or homelessness etc etc. just like us. They are also going to die just like us the only difference is that they got dealt a better hand based on the circumstances life gave them.

You believe life is worth it cause that's all you have ever known as a sentient being. So it's ignorant and biased to say that life is worth it. Who are these people you speak of? Their lives are just as pointless and meaningless as ours but they get to enjoy their time here to distract themselves with very brief moments of dopamine rushing.

If anyone has a toxic mentality it's lifers propagating that life is worth the effort and that we should have as many babies as we want to play the same life script bullshit their parents and grandparents went through. They are trapped in their meat sacks and they let their biology dictate logic. It's all a conundrum and quite honestly I'm sure as you said it won't make a difference to change yours or my mind about it. Quite honestly you should look up antinatalism to the extent why bringing children into this world is immoral and selfish created by the very biological processes you want to defend only cause you have only experienced what your biology tells you. I would like to keep going but I think this is good for now as I am tired.
 
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B

Ben

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Sep 12, 2018
785
I don’t share that persons opinion that “ if you don’t value Consciousness, you must not value anything”. That’s pretty stupid.

Look, people can live happy lives. My sister for example, is living in Thailand. Enjoys her job, loves her BF, and has always been a ray of sunshine. Yes, she probably has struggles to, and also lives in a world full of struggle around her, but I can confidently tell you she prefers life over death.

Of course my own biological experiences have shaped my opinions, I was under the impression that’s the proper way to form them. Why would I read something that does not relate to me, and change my opinions because of it? All I KNOW is what I’ve been through, not what others have. I’m not going to spend hours reading information and opinions I don’t agree with, in hopes my mind will be changed.

I’m also not here to argue, I’ve said what I’ve wanted to say, multiple times, across different threads, and I’m quite honestly exhausted trying to support my opinions to people who disagree.

We all agree death should come to those who want it. We shouldn’t try and deconstruct people with different opinions. I would be greatly appreciative if how I feel could be accepted, and I can leave the need to have this conversation again, behind me. You can disagree with me, I’m ok with that, but my mind is not changing, period.
 
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RM5998

RM5998

Sack of Meat
Sep 3, 2018
2,206
You sound like a guy I argued with discussing the same topic. He kept saying 'If you don't value consciousness you don't value anything'. My rebuttal was that for one I did not ask to be born and I sure as hell don't value a life that will regardless be a losing game until I finally die.

Also what do you mean by fulfilling lives? Everything humans do is to eliminate the negatives in life however brief and end up going back to do the same life script bullshit just to block the boredom. It's an existential problem where all we can do is hedonism and humanism when we confront the void. So at best we can enjoy our lives and make other people's lives better for a brief moment. You said the ones with such fullness lives in bliss which I might add isn't true. They still have to eliminate the negatives like hunger or homelessness etc etc. just like us. They are also going to die just like us the only difference is that they got dealt a better hand based on the circumstances life gave them.

You believe life is worth it cause that's all you have ever known as a sentient being. So it's ignorant and biased to say that life is worth it. Who are these people you speak of? Their lives are just as pointless and meaningless as ours but they get to enjoy their time here to distract themselves with very brief moments of dopamine rushing.

If anyone has a toxic mentality it's lifers propagating that life is worth the effort and that we should have as many babies as we want to play the same life script bullshit their parents and grandparents went through. They are trapped in their meat sacks and they let their biological dictate logic. It's all a conundrum and quite honestly I'm sure as you said it won't make a difference to change yours or my mind about it. Quite honestly you should look up antinatalism to the extent why bringing children into this world is immoral and selfish created by the very biological processes you want to defend only cause you have only experienced what your biology tells you. I would like to keep going but I think this is good for now as I am tired.

Antinatalism doesn't work as a rebuttal to the gene propagation system that is a biological imperative. The nihilism that is at the core of the philosophy prevents it from being universalisable. The solution that is ideal is to practice eugenics, and offer euthanasia centers. That way, the ones among us who are prone to adopting an antinatalist mindset will never arise in the population.
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
You sound like a guy I argued with discussing the same topic. He kept saying 'If you don't value consciousness you don't value anything'. My rebuttal was that for one I did not ask to be born and I sure as hell don't value a life that will regardless be a losing game until I finally die.

Also what do you mean by fulfilling lives? Everything humans do is to eliminate the negatives in life however brief and end up going back to do the same life script bullshit just to block the boredom. It's an existential problem where all we can do is hedonism and humanism when we confront the void. So at best we can enjoy our lives and make other people's lives better for a brief moment. You said the ones with such fullness lives in bliss which I might add isn't true. They still have to eliminate the negatives like hunger or homelessness etc etc. just like us. They are also going to die just like us the only difference is that they got dealt a better hand based on the circumstances life gave them.

You believe life is worth it cause that's all you have ever known as a sentient being. So it's ignorant and biased to say that life is worth it. Who are these people you speak of? Their lives are just as pointless and meaningless as ours but they get to enjoy their time here to distract themselves with very brief moments of dopamine rushing.

If anyone has a toxic mentality it's lifers propagating that life is worth the effort and that we should have as many babies as we want to play the same life script bullshit their parents and grandparents went through. They are trapped in their meat sacks and they let their biological dictate logic. It's all a conundrum and quite honestly I'm sure as you said it won't make a difference to change yours or my mind about it. Quite honestly you should look up antinatalism to the extent why bringing children into this world is immoral and selfish created by the very biological processes you want to defend only cause you have only experienced what your biology tells you. I would like to keep going but I think this is good for now as I am tired.
The Buddha was right imho. All life is, is trying to eliminate the suffering for brief moments of relief. The lucky people can only be lucky socially. They still have bodies and are subjected to disease, physically or psychologically.
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
Antinatalism doesn't work as a rebuttal to the gene propagation system that is a biological imperative. The nihilism that is at the core of the philosophy prevents it from being universalisable. The solution that is ideal is to practice eugenics, and offer euthanasia centers. That way, the ones among us who are prone to adopting an antinatalist mindset will never arise in the population.
No because potential anti natalists will still be born and they'll have to suffer until that because of your ideology. The whole species must die.
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

-
Jun 17, 2018
1,364
The solution to anti natalism is never ending pleasure for everyone, and because to achieve that goal a civilization will have to evolve and survive for a long time; which means too many people will have to be sacrificed. Not worth it. And that's not even certain, it's playing dice. Because the variables are infinite.
 
B

Ben

-
Sep 12, 2018
785
The whole species must die.

I can’t be the only one alarmed when people say stuff like that. You’re entitled to think live has no value, but when you word it like that, it sounds like you’ve ran out of reasons to not become a serial killer.

I don’t want to talk about this anymore, but I felt the need to say that. Feel free to rebuttal, but you know how I feel.