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dangier_to_myself

Student
Apr 10, 2018
120
...is what we mean by the question. Surely no one is asking whether the body survives death, and if you think it through you will find that, even if there is a "spiritual" body, its survival likewise has nothing to do with ours. Moreover, we are not asking whether our memories survive death (each of us knows that we could survive total amnesia, so the extinction of all our memories at death has no bearing on the matter), and the same goes for all the other facts of a person's psychology. What, then, would constitute the absence of an afterlife?
 
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never getting better

never getting better

Member
Apr 27, 2018
60
State of existence the same as before we were born. No consciousness, no experience and no knowledge of anything happening.

It's difficult to describe. I've been under anaesthetic for surgery before and I'd say like that. It was as if the time between the anaesthetic being administered and waking up hours later didn't exist.
 
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dangier_to_myself

Student
Apr 10, 2018
120
State of existence the same as before we were born. No consciousness, no experience and no knowledge of anything happening.

It's difficult to describe. I've been under anaesthetic for surgery before and I'd say like that. It was as if the time between the anaesthetic being administered and waking up hours later didn't exist.
But you survived the unconsciousness during surgery, so clearly that is not an example of not surviving!
 
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never getting better

never getting better

Member
Apr 27, 2018
60
But you survived the unconsciousness during surgery, so clearly that is not an example of not surviving!

I can't be bothered to over think or go into depth on this and I probably shouldn't have replied as I'm not thinking straight and I'm groggy because of my meds.

Sorry.
 
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mothfly

mothfly

dancing in the sunshower, baby
Mar 20, 2018
21
Well...... Just imagine the surgery unconsciousness forever..... once the body doesn't work anymore, everything is gone and you cannot return.....so you're basically trapped/released forever out there, but you don't know about it.....you're dead.
 
Sonnenblume

Sonnenblume

Sunflower Panda
Apr 6, 2018
588
Well...... Just imagine the surgery unconsciousness forever..... once the body doesn't work anymore, everything is gone and you cannot return.....so you're basically trapped/released forever out there, but you don't know about it.....you're dead.

this is interesting, are you trapped or finally released? I'd say the latter.
 
bag.of.cats

bag.of.cats

depressed cats
Apr 10, 2018
96
Just imagine the surgery unconsciousness forever..... once the body doesn't work anymore, everything is gone and you cannot return
Yet here we are, for some unknown reason. We assume we pop into existence only once, but what if it can happen again, and after you die you wake up, but in a different context?
 
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Malice1

Malice1

-
Apr 6, 2018
287
I've been under anaesthetic for surgery before and I'd say like that. It was as if the time between the anaesthetic being administered and waking up hours later didn't exist.
Same. When i went under general anesthesia (wasn't for surgery) it was like i lost all trace of time. They say i was asleep for 2 hours. I couldn't really tell. Hell, i didn't even notice myself going to sleep.
 
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dangier_to_myself

Student
Apr 10, 2018
120
the only difference is when you go to sleep or are under anesthesia you are of the mindset that you'll wake up. but not being conscious itself is a lot like not existing.
Yes, but what *is* the mindset that I'll wake up, if it is not the mindset that my body will wake up, not the mindset that I will retain my memories, etc?
 
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Thoughts95

Member
May 25, 2018
14
Yet here we are, for some unknown reason. We assume we pop into existence only once, but what if it can happen again, and after you die you wake up, but in a different context?
Individuals don't happen again on earth though. Humans have existed long enough that this would be documented by now, with solid stories. Forget the ridiculous, unsubstantiated fantasies of prior lives available out there. There aren't any solid stories with marked evidence that they existed prior as someone else.

What I mean by that is if you are John today in 2018, and you have this identity and are carrying memories, you as in John will never exist here again.

I don't understand why people get worried about reincarnation when you, as in your conscious self as this person, will never have to experience life again. If there's some soul inside that carries on, it's not us so why get latched onto it. I'm not sitting here as Edith from the 7th century or Jacob from the 20th. The dead are dead to the Earth and to us. That much we know pretty well
 
bag.of.cats

bag.of.cats

depressed cats
Apr 10, 2018
96
Individuals don't happen again on earth though. Humans have existed long enough that this would be documented by now, with solid stories. Forget the ridiculous, unsubstantiated fantasies of prior lives available out there. There aren't any solid stories with marked evidence that they existed prior as someone else.
You got me wrong, I wasn't talking about carrying your identity, souls or anything like that. Just the hypothesis that after you die, you cannot experience nothing forever, and through some quantum voodoo, you might spawn again (maybe in some other form), but standalone without any connection to your prior existence. For simplicity sake, I'm using you here, to denote your subjective experience, not your older self, which is gone after death.
 
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Thoughts95

Member
May 25, 2018
14
You got me wrong, I wasn't talking about carrying your identity, souls or anything like that. Just the hypothesis that after you die, you cannot experience nothing forever, and through some quantum voodoo, you might spawn again (maybe in some other form), but standalone without any connection to your prior existence. For simplicity sake, I'm using you here, to denote your subjective experience, not your older self, which is gone after death.
What do you mean by you is defined as subjective experience? It's not going to be any part of you, completely standalone with no connection. Why then make any connection to yourself and call it spawning again instead of spawning for the first time with no relation to what is you right now?

I know someone who thinks about this and actually has quite a fear. I've never been able to truly put all the pieces together on this one. It seems to be something a lot of people theorize.
 
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dangier_to_myself

Student
Apr 10, 2018
120
Individuals don't happen again on earth though. Humans have existed long enough that this would be documented by now, with solid stories. Forget the ridiculous, unsubstantiated fantasies of prior lives available out there. There aren't any solid stories with marked evidence that they existed prior as someone else.

What I mean by that is if you are John today in 2018, and you have this identity and are carrying memories, you as in John will never exist here again.

I don't understand why people get worried about reincarnation when you, as in your conscious self as this person, will never have to experience life again. If there's some soul inside that carries on, it's not us so why get latched onto it. I'm not sitting here as Edith from the 7th century or Jacob from the 20th. The dead are dead to the Earth and to us. That much we know pretty well
I've already proven that memories don't matter. Please do try to keep up
 
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dangier_to_myself

Student
Apr 10, 2018
120
What do you mean by you is defined as subjective experience? It's not going to be any part of you, completely standalone with no connection. Why then make any connection to yourself and call it spawning again instead of spawning for the first time with no relation to what is you right now?

I know someone who thinks about this and actually has quite a fear. I've never been able to truly put all the pieces together on this one. It seems to be something a lot of people theorize.
What connection do you have with yourself after any period of unconsciousness? There is the body, but obviously that can't be it, because if it were there would be no such thing as the belief in an afterlife, which there plainly is. There are the memories, but obviously I could survive total amnesia, so that can't be it either. There are various other facts about my psychology all of which could change without threatening my survival. What, then, is this connection that holds between two streams of consciousness which has nothing to do with the body or the psychology (or the soul, as you yourself pointed out)
 
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TheStartOfEnding

-
May 1, 2018
56
There are some theories like Open Individualism that don't involve any reincarnation/magical shit/survival of a particular individual but imply nobody dies really in any significant sense, only the individual die but since You are Everyone (according to this theory), the death of an individual you identified with at a certain moment doesn't imply your death since you are everyone.

I encourage everyone here to research Open Individualism or Arnold Zuboff universalism.
 
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dangier_to_myself

Student
Apr 10, 2018
120
There are some theories like Open Individualism that don't involve any reincarnation/magical shit/survival of a particular individual but imply nobody dies really in any significant sense, only the individual die but since You are Everyone (according to this theory), the death of an individual you identified with at a certain moment doesn't imply your death since you are everyone.

I encourage everyone here to research Open Individualism or Arnold Zuboff universalism.
Open individualism cannot account for the existence of personal time
 
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