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chocolatebar

chocolatebar

Elementalist
Jul 11, 2021
848
Ever since I was diagnosed in the autism spectrum, I've been looking for people in these movements, mostly seeking help or to be able to help other people like me. I don't really know what I expected, but frustration is the only thing I got.

My first mistake was to think that neurodivergent people, because they probably suffer a lot from lack of empathy and understanding, would be more likely to be empathetic to each other. Turns out they fight, take advantage of and even bully each other just like most people will do. It was really depressing to see it happening.

Another bitter truth was seeing people in these movements seeking only personal advantages and not helping the community at all. They join these organizations or create their owns just looking to get a job or create a business out of it. Events and business partnerships are most of what they do, but when someone approaches them seeking help, they refuse.

Ever since neurodivergence has been gaining more attention by health professionals and more people are getting diagnosed, these movements are being flooded by people who are in the border of the diagnosis and experience very few limitations, managing to do things by their own just nicely. At first, there's nothing wrong with this and is even desirable. The problem comes when these people become the only voice in the activism and will only seek things that help them, but won't help the ones severely limited. The autism organizations are a great example. I've seen a lot of organizations and corporations advertising they help autistic people to find jobs, but they only hire the ones with barely any social and cognitive limitation.

I also get mad when they promote neurodivergence as something great. Some will even call it a "superpower". These people may enjoy their different worldview while having almost no limitations, but I feel even insulted when they say it's a superpower when I can't even properly use public transport and can't be present in too loud places for a long time because I find myself collapsing in agony. Yes, I may have special skills and can to what other people consider as complex things with ease, but the limitations are too severe for me to call it a good thing. I also acknowledge many other people aren't "lucky" like me and will have much more limitations, even cognitive ones. No one would choose to be like that if they had a choice.

It all became more clear when they talked bout their lives. Most of the leaders and activists in these movements managed to get jobs at young ages, got partners since young, made a career, live independently in their own houses, some have families, etc. It all became clear they are biased and don't represent all of the community. It wouldn't be a problem if they helped everyone and acknowledged the ones in worse situations, but they are selfish. I would even call them traitors of the cause.

It was even worse when I mentioned my suicidality. It's very know that we have much higher suicidality rates, but they made it seem like not and will silence any mention of it, just like most people would do
 
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noname223

Illuminated
Aug 18, 2020
3,053
Ever since I was diagnosed in the autism spectrum, I've been looking for people in these movements, mostly seeking help or to be able to help other people like me. I don't really know what I expected, but frustration is the only thing I got.

My first mistake was to think that neurodivergent people, because they probably suffer a lot from lack of empathy and understanding, would be more likely to be empathetic to each other. Turns out they fight, take advantage of and even bully each other just like most people will do. It was really depressing to see it happening.

Another bitter truth was seeing people in these movements seeking only personal advantages and not helping the community at all. They join these organizations or create their owns just looking to get a job or create a business out of it. Events and business partnerships are most of what they do, but when someone approaches them seeking help, they refuse.

Ever since neurodivergence has been gaining more attention by health professionals and more people are getting diagnosed, these movements are being flooded by people who are in the border of the diagnosis and experience very few limitations, managing to do things by their own just nicely. At first, there's nothing wrong with this and is even desirable. The problem comes when these people become the only voice in the activism and will only seek things that help them, but won't help the ones severely limited. The autism organizations are a great example. I've seen a lot of organizations and corporations advertising they help autistic people to find jobs, but they only hire the ones with barely any social and cognitive limitation.

I also get mad when they promote neurodivergence as something great. Some will even call it a "superpower". These people may enjoy their different worldview while having almost no limitations, but I feel even insulted when they say it's a superpower when I can't even properly use public transport and can't be present in too loud places for a long time because I find myself collapsing in agony. Yes, I may have special skills and can to what other people consider as complex things with ease, but the limitations are too severe for me to call it a good thing. I also acknowledge many other people aren't "lucky" like me and will have much more limitations, even cognitive ones. No one would choose to be like that if they had a choice.

It all became more clear when they talked bout their lives. Most of the leaders and activists in these movements managed to get jobs at young ages, got partners since young, made a career, live independently in their own houses, some have families, etc. It all became clear they are biased and don't represent all of the community. It wouldn't be a problem if they helped everyone and acknowledged the ones in worse situations, but they are selfish. I would even call them traitors of the cause.

It was even worse when I mentioned my suicidality. It's very know that we have much higher suicidality rates, but they made it seen like not and will silence any mention of it, just like most people would do
I can relate to that.
In my country there are workshops for disabled people. I know some people profit from going to work and get self-esteem. Once a fucking asshole of psychiatrist told me I should go to one. It was complete hell. I went twice there. I was extremely depressive to that time and intensified the pain so much. It was an extreme nightmare. Way worse than the psych ward. The psychiatrist did not know me and did not care. He was one of the worst psychiatrists I ever had. My current one is way way better.

I tell this story because of the following. In these workshops for disabled people they exploit the people. They pay them some cents per hour. It is such a shame. On the outside they pretend to care about vulnerable people but instead they take advantage of them. This is at least my opinion. I can see some people cannot contribute to high quality products. But giving them some cents per hour is a fucking joke. I think they make way more money with the products. It is a shame.
 
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chocolatebar

chocolatebar

Elementalist
Jul 11, 2021
848
They pay them some cents per hour. It is such a shame. On the outside they pretend to care about vulnerable people but instead they take advantage of them.

This is horrible and something I can easily see the groups I interacted with doing. They would even mask everything by saying that they're helping people get more sociable and gain work experience, being the salary just a token to give a small incentive.

It's even worse to see people from the outside applauding all of this.

By the way, Was the exploitation you mentioned even legal in your country?
 
N

noname223

Illuminated
Aug 18, 2020
3,053
This is horrible and something I can easily see the groups I interacted with doing. They would even mask everything by saying that they're helping people get more sociable and gain work experience, being the salary just a token to give a small incentive.

It's even worse to see people from the outside applauding all of this.

By the way, Was the exploitation you mentioned even legal in your country?
It is legal and has high prestige. I don't deny it can help people to work a job. But to be honest giving them some cents for it is in my opinion a scam. There is more and more criticism about the salary. But if you crticize the system you are considered as counterproductive of even hostile towards disabled people. The people on top of the system act like they were good Samaritans though instead I think the whole system is incredibly unfair.

To add one thing. Working there is voluntary. And some disabled people demand more money. But criticizing the system and the people who are responsible for it is seen very critical and detrimental.
 
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noaccount

Enlightened
Oct 26, 2019
1,057
Where are you experiencing this?
 
KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

your free trial of life expired, purchase winrar?
Nov 23, 2020
1,220
I noticed this too. There is a growing push towards labeling autism as solely a social disability, meaning that the impairment is socially constructed and that accomodation from neurotypical people would solve any issues presented by being autistic.

The very high functioning, genius types will quickly shut down anyone who doesn't conform to their narrative that autism is the next step in human evolution. Deadass, I have witnessed consistent shaming towards "lower functioning" individuals in autism groups online- those who had more frequent meltdowns or outbursts, those who couldn't spell properly, those who went to special schools for adults with learning disabilities, etc.

The people with the greatest impairments were ostracised and outcast. Any issue they had was blamed on them not trying hard enough, accusations of having a victim mindset or not wanting to seek help were frequently slung out. Such an environment could only be described as pencil pusher and ableist.

Much to my dismay, irl autism groups in my community were also like this. Support groups were actually activist groups where they spend ages arguing about how the word disability is offensive when used in the context of autism, debating over person first language, and other nonsense which quite frankly are non-issues when you look at the discrimination autistic people face everyday and how nothing is being done to change that negative perception towards people who don't who don't have savant talents.

I give up on trying to find other autistic people to talk to because if they are terminally online they will probably be invested in this discourse and I cant be honest about how autism is objectively a negative force for me. There's no way to spin this disability into a talent, when I can't make eye contact, have aphantsia, abnormal speech, and it took me 16 years to learn how to tie my shoes!
 
chocolatebar

chocolatebar

Elementalist
Jul 11, 2021
848
Where are you experiencing this?
It was a bit unclear if you asked me or the other user, but in case you asked me, I experienced this in local support groups in my city, online groups with national scope in my country, a few NGOs who aim to help autistics find job opportunities, the big reddit communities and one famous danish organization which is moving for a global scope.
I noticed this too. There is a growing push towards labeling autism as solely a social disability, meaning that the impairment is socially constructed and that accomodation from neurotypical people would solve any issues presented by being autistic.

The very high functioning, genius types will quickly shut down anyone who doesn't conform to their narrative that autism is the next step in human evolution. Deadass, I have witnessed consistent shaming towards "lower functioning" individuals in autism groups online- those who had more frequent meltdowns or outbursts, those who couldn't spell properly, those who went to special schools for adults with learning disabilities, etc.

The people with the greatest impairments were ostracised and outcast. Any issue they had was blamed on them not trying hard enough, accusations of having a victim mindset or not wanting to seek help were frequently slung out. Such an environment could only be described as pencil pusher and ableist.

Much to my dismay, irl autism groups in my community were also like this. Support groups were actually activist groups where they spend ages arguing about how the word disability is offensive when used in the context of autism, debating over person first language, and other nonsense which quite frankly are non-issues when you look at the discrimination autistic people face everyday and how nothing is being done to change that negative perception towards people who don't who don't have savant talents.

I give up on trying to find other autistic people to talk to because if they are terminally online they will probably be invested in this discourse and I cant be honest about how autism is objectively a negative force for me. There's no way to spin this disability into a talent, when I can't make eye contact, have aphantsia, abnormal speech, and it took me 16 years to learn how to tie my shoes!
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I also feel like giving up on looking for a community and not being able to be honest about how I feel about it is terrible.

As a side note, I never managed to properly find a way to tie my shoes, so I do it loosely once and try to preserve the tie forever, putting the shoes on and off without messing with it.
 
N

noaccount

Enlightened
Oct 26, 2019
1,057
Ah they sound very pro-capitalist. (I say pro-capitalist rather than capitalist because most people duped into supporting the system are never actually going to be allowed 'in the club' - they're never actually going to own and wield Capital, they're forever only going to be exploited by it.)

In the U.S. there are Centers for Independent Living set up by & for disabled people but I don't know how it works in Denmark. ADAPT is also one of the more militant disability justice orgs.

I read also about Denmark setting up a dual legal system with one set of laws for native ethnic Danish and whole other laws set up just to criminalize and punish immigrants travelers and roma people disproportionately, it seems absolutely miserable like they're determined to destroy anyone with different ways of living.

All disability is social which does not mean that accommodation would make it "disappear." @KuriGohan&Kamehameha what are you looking for that is *not* accommodation?
 
KuriGohan&Kamehameha

KuriGohan&Kamehameha

your free trial of life expired, purchase winrar?
Nov 23, 2020
1,220
Ah they sound very pro-capitalist. (I say pro-capitalist rather than capitalist because most people duped into supporting the system are never actually going to be allowed 'in the club' - they're never actually going to own and wield Capital, they're forever only going to be exploited by it.)

In the U.S. there are Centers for Independent Living set up by & for disabled people but I don't know how it works in Denmark. ADAPT is also one of the more militant disability justice orgs.

I read also about Denmark setting up a dual legal system with one set of laws for native ethnic Danish and whole other laws set up just to criminalize and punish immigrants travelers and roma people disproportionately, it seems absolutely miserable like they're determined to destroy anyone with different ways of living.

All disability is social which does not mean that accommodation would make it "disappear." @KuriGohan&Kamehameha what are you looking for that is *not* accommodation?
For me personally, I simply don't want to have the conditions that disable me in the first place, no speech impediment, no social difficulties, no obsessiveness and rigidity, no sensory issues with textures, none of that stuff. I was also dyspraxic for many years but that was the one thing got a bit better with time. If there were any sort of cure or way to manage autism, I would take it in a heartbeat. Imo, I suppose there's a difference between societal ideas of what is disabling and what an individual finds disabling.

Having aphantasia and being unable to be creative is a huge bane for me. Now, from a purely productive standpoint, this would likely not be considered disabling. You can still have a job, right, even if you can't do hobbies or activities that you actually want to do. However, not being able to make images in my head, being unable to plan conversations or think of novel ideas, is a curse for me.

Even worse is the speech impediment. No accomodation I've ever been given changes how people look at you if your speech is weird. Mine isn't as severe as say, Walt Jr from breaking bad, but the inflection of my voice, the cadence I speak with, the accent, stumbling across words.. It objectively makes people think differently of me and ruins my confidence. It has made me vunerable to predators because they will straight up admit they can tell I am autistic. Even if people didn't care, I still wouldn't like having this speech impediment, because I can't sing, and I could never do voice acting whenever I tried to join theatre related groups either.

Fashion is another interest of mine that is ruined by having autism. I have to spend hours and hours prowling for clothes that will not make me severely uncomfortable. The outfits that most people wear are so tight and have bad textures, I could hardly stand to even touch the fabrics. I hate this. There is objectively no benefit when it comes to having these sensory issues. As a child, I would cry and have meltdowns because I had to wear jeans. While other kids were celebrating achievements like winning a baseball game or becoming ballerinas, my biggest achievement was that I could finally put a pair of trousers on without going insane.

I know there are some people out there who got perks or unique traits from aurism, that they wouldn't change. No one should have to give up things they find beneficial, but there should be a push to develop treatments or quality of life improvements for people who do not like having autism and want to get rid of the traits that objectively make life harder and unpleasant for them.

While some accommodations have been helpful (having more time during exams, or being allowed to sit down when having physical pain) the vast majority of the ones offered to me have been useless. One instructor suggested that instead of talking in the small seminar groups we have, I should have to write multiple page long research summaries for a participation mark. Not only would that make me more socially awkward and unconfident, singling me out among my peers, but it is objectively more work than what one would expect of a NT person.

Instead, I spoke up during all of my seminars and actually ended up being one of the people who participated the most, but there was an underlying perception of me that because I am autistic I shouldn't be expected to speak and should instead have some aptitude for writing long papers instead. What if I want to speak and become better at socialising? Fundamentally the NT world isn't designed to accomodate autistic people because we are all different and all have different needs, strengths, and weaknesses. Instead, we all get painted with one brush, when what is disabling to one person may not be to another, etc

I want to be able to speak the language NTs do, not to fit into society better, but because I would feel more confident and happy if I was able to be spontaneous, make eye contact, and not feel overwhelmed. I know one can't do anything about this at my age, but it does make my life significantly harder and if given a choice, I would want it to go away.
 
N

noaccount

Enlightened
Oct 26, 2019
1,057
Ah well that sounds tricky because no one, regardless of their viewpoints or politics, could do anything that would make you not-autistic. I suppose you could look at getting speech therapy. (These are some people whose work I respect in that field, idk if they could help refer you to anyone near you or do remote video-sessions.) I mean the fact that people are looking at you differently and you are speaking but they aren't listening to you, and how they often don't respect communication from people who use AAC rather than talking verbally, is a key illustration of social disability model of - people can do a thing but they're socially excluded because their way of doing it is different.
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Arcanist
Jul 23, 2022
400
I noticed this too. There is a growing push towards labeling autism as solely a social disability, meaning that the impairment is socially constructed and that accomodation from neurotypical people would solve any issues presented by being autistic.

The very high functioning, genius types will quickly shut down anyone who doesn't conform to their narrative that autism is the next step in human evolution. Deadass, I have witnessed consistent shaming towards "lower functioning" individuals in autism groups online- those who had more frequent meltdowns or outbursts, those who couldn't spell properly, those who went to special schools for adults with learning disabilities, etc.

The people with the greatest impairments were ostracised and outcast. Any issue they had was blamed on them not trying hard enough, accusations of having a victim mindset or not wanting to seek help were frequently slung out. Such an environment could only be described as pencil pusher and ableist.

Much to my dismay, irl autism groups in my community were also like this. Support groups were actually activist groups where they spend ages arguing about how the word disability is offensive when used in the context of autism, debating over person first language, and other nonsense which quite frankly are non-issues when you look at the discrimination autistic people face everyday and how nothing is being done to change that negative perception towards people who don't who don't have savant talents.

I give up on trying to find other autistic people to talk to because if they are terminally online they will probably be invested in this discourse and I cant be honest about how autism is objectively a negative force for me. There's no way to spin this disability into a talent, when I can't make eye contact, have aphantsia, abnormal speech, and it took me 16 years to learn how to tie my shoes!
They definitely do exist, but I get your frustration if they've been drowned out by the positivity-crowd.
 
BipolarExpress

BipolarExpress

he/him · tired/exhausted
Nov 11, 2022
261
There are level-headed autistic activists who acknowledge that autism is a disability *and* that you shouldn't be ashamed of it. They want to see autistic people get more services and supports, rather than having them thrown into institutions and forced to do barbaric ABA "therapy." (Or worse, the Judge Rotenberg Center, where students are given painful electric shocks to control their behaviour. It's something that you'd expect suspected terrorists to go through, not disabled children, teenagers, and adults in America. Don't even get me started on that place.) These activists focus on concrete supports for autistic people, not just Shiny Happy People bullshit.
 
looseye

looseye

A boring person
Oct 27, 2021
105
I also get mad when they promote neurodivergence as something great. Some will even call it a "superpower".
This is a thing that bothers me so, so much with neurodivergent communities. If anything were a superpower, you wouldn't need help to deal with it in the first place.

What I have come across so often is that one's weaknesses are sugarcoated to such an extent that you're made believe it's everyone else who has to adapt to your way of life and not the other way around. It's great to have the opportunity to connect with equal-minded individuals but there's so little self-reflection in neurodivergent communities, it's truly cringeworthy. Whatever goes wrong in your life, it's all because of those evil neurotypicals, they're the ones to blame and noone else.

Obviously, non-"normal" people face a lot of unreasonable social discrimination for things they have little to no control over, be it the way they speak, think or whatever. Teaching unbiased methods of interaction with those people should be more prevalent in social discourse, that's for sure.

What kills this off, though, is when every single shortcoming of a person is justified with a disability and thereby further enforced. There ARE things that autists, bipolars, schizos, you name it, are able to fix about themselves in order to improve their quality of life and the way other people think of them; by ignoring this and blaming every problem on someone else, you're just creating an army of spoiled children in a grown-up's body. And this is what I saw happening in every single one of those neurodivergent communities I've been part of. Just a bunch of entitled brats jerking each other off over how they fail everyday tasks because they're too self-centered to at least try to fix anything. It's such a shit show.
 
chocolatebar

chocolatebar

Elementalist
Jul 11, 2021
848
There are level-headed autistic activists who acknowledge that autism is a disability *and* that you shouldn't be ashamed of it. They want to see autistic people get more services and supports, rather than having them thrown into institutions and forced to do barbaric ABA "therapy." (Or worse, the Judge Rotenberg Center, where students are given painful electric shocks to control their behaviour. It's something that you'd expect suspected terrorists to go through, not disabled children, teenagers, and adults in America. Don't even get me started on that place.) These activists focus on concrete supports for autistic people, not just Shiny Happy People bullshit.
I never managed to find these. Can you point me some? You're not talking about those ran by "parents of autists", right?
This is a thing that bothers me so, so much with neurodivergent communities. If anything were a superpower, you wouldn't need help to deal with it in the first place.

What I have come across so often is that one's weaknesses are sugarcoated to such an extent that you're made believe it's everyone else who has to adapt to your way of life and not the other way around. It's great to have the opportunity to connect with equal-minded individuals but there's so little self-reflection in neurodivergent communities, it's truly cringeworthy. Whatever goes wrong in your life, it's all because of those evil neurotypicals, they're the ones to blame and noone else.

Obviously, non-"normal" people face a lot of unreasonable social discrimination for things they have little to no control over, be it the way they speak, think or whatever. Teaching unbiased methods of interaction with those people should be more prevalent in social discourse, that's for sure.

What kills this off, though, is when every single shortcoming of a person is justified with a disability and thereby further enforced. There ARE things that autists, bipolars, schizos, you name it, are able to fix about themselves in order to improve their quality of life and the way other people think of them; by ignoring this and blaming every problem on someone else, you're just creating an army of spoiled children in a grown-up's body. And this is what I saw happening in every single one of those neurodivergent communities I've been part of. Just a bunch of entitled brats jerking each other off over how they fail everyday tasks because they're too self-centered to at least try to fix anything. It's such a shit show.
There are 2 sides of it, and no one is entirely right. While there are thing to be done by most neurodivergents, there are actually some who actually can't do anything about themselves, and the only option is for people to adjust themselves to accommodate them.

Another thing to consider is that people tend to think that we need to force us to be neurotypical, but that demands a lot of energy, leaving us in constant pressure.

However, like you said, there are things we can do, to better accommodate ourselves, or even to make it easier for people to help us, that won't be a burden to ourselves. This is the middle point most people seem to miss.
 
actual_fox

actual_fox

Arcanist
Sep 15, 2022
425
I also get mad when they promote neurodivergence as something great. Some will even call it a "superpower".
Same. It comes with so many downsides. There are even downsides which we do not suspect exist. I just discovered that "normal diet" makes me completely unhealthy and I cannot eat the same way others do.

I would suspect that those who are using others in those organizations are really not that autistic.