NumbItAll

NumbItAll

Mage
May 20, 2018
575
Even if you are the perfect parent, there is a nontrivial chance that your offspring will have a horrible life full of suffering due to physical/mental health issues or some other unforeseen circumstances. What % chance of that happening is acceptable? None, for me. I agree a lot with this post...
So I think this is our main point of disagreement. We could argue about what percent of people experience more suffering than pleasure, but I believe even if a single person experiences a life full of horrific suffering it is not worth the pleasure of even 7 billion people.

Imagine you are at a huge party where everyone is having a great time but hidden just under your feet is a room containing an 8 year old girl being raped and tortured, suffering to an unthinkable extent. The party and the torture will continue for thousands, even millions of years with the girl being replaced with a new one each time she dies. You have a button that would painlessly end the lives of everyone at the party and the girl, ending the pleasure and suffering forever. I take it you would not press it?
Plus there is the issue of consent which has already been covered. It all feels very sick to me. Not sure why existing is even necessary at all. I am blown away when I watch trashy reality shows and see couples haphazardly discussing how many kids they want, like they are just picking something out from the store. No big deal at all. Clearly I am out of the loop.
 
Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
500
why is it necessarily better that living and dealing with suffering in order to find something enjoyable is worse than avoiding all pain and not existing entirely?
Your argument has been debunked too many times.

your need to seek pleasure only driven by your gene, controll you to avoid misery and turn to pleasure which actually just happy chemical hormones in your brain. But human are slave to it

that system not applied for the non existence. Non existence doesnt even need pleasure: those happy chemicals in brain cause they cant feel pain either. They dont even have brain hormones nervous system, Those crap only applies to living things which have the sensory to feel and think.
it seems like living things are interested in continuing to live when created so i have trouble accepting that it’s better for life (human ones specifically) to not be continued to be created.
if life were really so undesirable it would make sense we would see more people attempting to override their programming despite difficulty in obtaining good methods.
you’re more or less saying that, for most people/living creatures, life is worth persisting in.
People dont even have the free choice to end their lives otherwise this forum and other suicide resources wouldnt even need to fight so hard.



religion, law, etc, etc punish people, ban method and make it so hard for people to end their lives. That proves how many people being forced to born selfishly and to suffer their entire lives. Like slavery

make sacro pod or N or other painless death be legal, available for free for anyone+dont make suicide a taboo

then we can see the truth
 
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whatevs

whatevs

There is something special about deciding when
Jan 15, 2022
2,089
make sacro pod or N or other painless death be legal, available for free for anyone+dont make suicide a taboo

then we can see the truth
The truth is that 99% of people wouldn't even dream of using the pod or drinking a painless barbiturate. People enjoy living, they are walking embodiments of the will to exist. The very reason they are around is because 'something' wanted to be manifested to begin with, so their essence/idiosyncrasy is made up of eagerness to live, survive and escape death.

Just because you or me feel something else regarding life it doesn't mean this sentiment is the norm.
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
500
The truth is that 99% of people wouldn't even dream of using the pod or drinking a painless barbiturate. People enjoy living, they are walking embodiments of the will to exist. The very reason they are around is because something wanted to be manifested to begin with, so their essence/idiosincrasy is made up of eagerness to live, survive and escape death.

Just because you or me feel something else regarding life it doesn't mean this sentiment is the norm.
Drinking, drugs, binge eating, stress, depression are very high check on the global survey 70%-80% of global population are victim of it. Which means many people feel burdened about this lives but they dont have the choice to escape. Those are their escapism of this hard lives. (Drugs, drinking, addiction, etc, etc)

Even successful people which from the outside seem to have a great lives fall into depression.
 
whatevs

whatevs

There is something special about deciding when
Jan 15, 2022
2,089
Drinking, drugs, binge eating, sex, pornography, addiction to sports or your physique, doing trips to run from your issues at home, getting obsessed with work and earning money and fame, attaching yourself to someone and having offspring, having strong familial bonds.
You inspired me to list some of the things that normies do that PREVENT them from wanting to kill themselves. And there are many more.
 
Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
500
The very reason they are around is because 'something' wanted to be manifested to begin with, so their essence/idiosyncrasy is made up of eagerness to live, survive and escape death.
are you saying everybody here who still cant ctb, who are in abusive relationship, slavery, sick, aging, deteriorating, disabled, depressed lonely, etc
Suffer because they want to? Instead of other reasons that force them to endure
You inspired me to list some of the things that normies do that PREVENT them from wanting to kill themselves. And there are many more.
Religion too. It makes some people feel high on that and think theyre special and get reward to continue to endure
 
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whatevs

whatevs

There is something special about deciding when
Jan 15, 2022
2,089
are you saying everybody here who still cant ctb, who are in abusive relationship, slavery, sick, aging, deteriorating, disabled, depressed lonely, etc
Suffer because they want to? Instead of other reasons that force them to endure
Obviously nobody actually wants to suffer, I'm just saying that the default of humans is to covet existing and fear death, so suicide is rare.
 
Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
500
Obviously nobody actually wants to suffer, I'm just saying that the default of humans is to covet existing and fear death, so suicide is rare.
But appart from SI, suicide taboo is a doctrine, fear mongering people. The law, religion, ban, etc, etc.
Without those the ctb rate will be higher

that makes me wonder.. Do animals know and fear death, what makes people fear death.......

I guess its because death dying=painful seems scary... Unless if it can be painless...

Like when you play a game and it turn into a mess and you fed up with it. You can just quit easily without any trouble. If life is like that people wont hesitate to quit life when its not desirable for them anymore.

same as people quit stressful job or toxic relationship, etc its the consequence to escape it that people fear
 
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whatevs

whatevs

There is something special about deciding when
Jan 15, 2022
2,089
that makes me wonder.. Do animals know and fear death, what makes people fear death.......
You should really read Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation. You're close to the crucial question but are trying to squeeze unrelated explanations into why lifeforms want to exist. It isn't fear of pain. Pain is a way the body has to signal that the will to exist is being threatened or blocked. Lifeforms fear death because they are manifestations of the will to exist, and death destroys the manifestation (although not the will itself, which is an essence or a Platonic idea if you will).

Note that Schopenhauer didn't explain EVERYTHING, he just laid out well some aspects of the puzzle of reality, particularly the one that's now occupying your mind.
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
500
You should really read Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation. You're close to the crucial question but are trying to squeeze unrelated explanations into why lifeforms want to exist. It isn't fear of pain. Pain is a way the body has to signal that the will to exist is being threatened or blocked. Lifeforms fear death because they are manifestations of the will to exist, and death destroys the manifestation (although not the will itself, which is an essence or a Platonic idea if you will).

Note that Schopenhauer didn't explain EVERYTHING, he just laid out well some aspects of the puzzle of reality, particularly the one that's now occupying your mind.
I read it but it seems to talk about the will to survive not the will to be born? as non existence doesnt have that

Even if he said that theres no proof that non existence can even do that isnt it?

that sounds like some religion doctrine that said human need to be martyred, sacrifice, keep breeding to pay debt from their previous lives

what i meant to talk about is from scientific viewpoint
 
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whatevs

whatevs

There is something special about deciding when
Jan 15, 2022
2,089
But those are just assumptions and no proof to it?

What im talking about is from scientific viewpoint
Everything about life proves Schopenhauer's philosophy. Just because it isn't materialistic it doesn't mean it is false. This notion that anything radically outside of materialism is automatically false is ironically very unscientific as scientific enquiry is purported to be about always considering new ideas as long as one can reason OR prove them.

Though as I said, in this particular case it's very obvious that life comes from some subtle impulse that is characterized by an eagerness to exist, of which the fear of death and the drive to reproduce are symptoms. Your inability to understand life and the fear of death comes from the delusion that materialism (or worse still, an academia enslaved by money and social validation) can actually explain life, when what we are going through it's just a transient obscurantist ideology that causes untold anxiety by giving you worthless technology in exchange for robbing you of trascendence.

Your "Science" has characterized this as genes and evolution, but although that can be measured scientifically it is something that's less abstract than the will to exist and thus it is actually further from the truth. Who knows more about architecture, the guy studying a building or the guy studying what IS a building?
 
Fumito

Fumito

I Wonder
May 1, 2020
697
your need to seek pleasure only driven by your gene. human are slave to it
technically my entire brain is just a system of hormones, chemicals, genes, etc. how can I be a 'slave' to the fundamental structures of what I am? it is simply the mechanism by which I exist. whatever your feelings about suicide are, i think you have to accept to some degree that it's necessarily irrational (maybe not completely unreasonable, however) to opt for your own non existence, or in the case of antinatalism opting for having not existed at all, because you're choosing the inability to have anything, which seems contradictory. you aren't even choosing to have something different, you're choosing the absence of anything at all.
religion, law, etc, etc punish people, ban method and make it so hard for people to end their lives. That proves how many people being forced to born selfishly and to suffer their entire lives. Like slavery
actually, pointing out how difficult human societies make it to take one's life kind of helps my argument. why would human beings go to great lengths to discourage the taking of one's life if those humans themselves were genuinely better off not existing, or if existence was so terrible? humans had to make those societies and set up those rules, so despite how terrible life must be, they for the most part agreed that choosing to die was bad/undesirable. and the argument that they're a slave to their genetics doesn't hold up because that's like saying "a cup filled with coffee is a slave to having coffee in it, and the cup full of coffee would be better at being a cup full of coffee if it were emptied." this doesn't really make sense; it wouldn't BE a cup full of coffee without the coffee, so it's not a slave to anything that's just what it is descriptively.
 
SantaTeresa

SantaTeresa

Member
May 10, 2022
40
There is no philosophy about in my opinion, just common sense shaped by reality.

Either you want to have kids or you don't, and in if you do, you are morally obligated to be a good parent and provide a good upbringing to your kids and think of their well being before yours. Children are people, not prizes. Having a family is an honourific responsibility not a right, the only right we have here is to step aside.

Although I categorically reject any government dictate, a subtle direction towards anti-natalism doesn't sound too bad. The planet is overpopulated, and not by the competent kind. An artificial soft control could prevent majour tragedies and raise the standards of living.

Personally, I will never contribute in the gene pool of this disgusting specie, I can barely maintain myself alive anyways, and even if I were to be rich, nothing can make me care about someone else.