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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
Why do people get to treat mental illness like it can’t be “end stage”? Like we think of for medical illnesses like for example cancer. When you’ve exhausted all canacer treatments, you get to be admitted to
Palliative care or hospice to be able to die comfortably. Why don’t people with mental illness get to die comfortably? If I’m treatment resistant, as deemed by my doctor, isn’t that sort of end stage bipolar disorder? Just like end stage cancer? Why do I have to die by gun?

In certain European countries they have psychiatric euthanasia for cases like this. Why not in the US? Show us some empathy, compassion, and humanity instead of letting us suffer!!
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
Have no doubt that psychiatrists will force and manipulate people into this, just like they force and manipulate people into everything else.

Respect people's right to end their own lives if they choose. Don't bring psychiatrists into the process. They are torturers and murderers already.
 
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Ta555

Warlock
Aug 31, 2021
753
Why do people get to treat mental illness like it can’t be “end stage”? Like we think of for medical illnesses like for example cancer. When you’ve exhausted all canacer treatments, you get to be admitted to
Palliative care or hospice to be able to die comfortably. Why don’t people with mental illness get to die comfortably? If I’m treatment resistant, as deemed by my doctor, isn’t that sort of end stage bipolar disorder? Just like end stage cancer? Why do I have to die by gun?

In certain European countries they have psychiatric euthanasia for cases like this. Why not in the US? Show us some empathy, compassion, and humanity instead of letting us suffer!!
My personal theory only but I think it's because people believe that if the suffering is mental/emotional it can be fixed by changing your thinking. Which in some straightforward cases is true but often is not. There's this belief that mental illness is all about either negative/wrong thinking or chemical imbalance. I think there's way more to that like post-viral illness, inflammation, neurological issues but that's too complicated for psychiatry which just wants to hand out psychoactive pills.
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
Have no doubt that psychiatrists will force and manipulate people into this, just like they force and manipulate people into everything else.

Respect people's right to end their own lives if they choose. Don't bring psychiatrists into the process. They are torturers and murderers already.
I only mean because they can also prescribe the meds to make you comfortable and end your life. Sure you could take your chances and could get drugs on the street and do the same. I also understand needing to make the process of psychiatric euthanasia official by having two doctors give professional opinions which is what I believe happens in Belgium, Netherlands. Doctors can prescribe all meds even ones to end your life

Back to my comparison with cancer, Couldn’t you also consider doctors prescribing chemo torturers? Have you ever witness chemo infusions? Pretty torturous as well
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
My personal theory only but I think it's because people believe that if the suffering is mental/emotional it can be fixed by changing your thinking. Which in some straightforward cases is true but often is not. There's this belief that mental illness is all about either negative/wrong thinking or chemical imbalance. I think there's way more to that like post-viral illness, inflammation, neurological issues but that's too complicated for psychiatry which just wants to hand out psychoactive pills.
But it’s like how many years of psychotherapy does it take to realize some people just can’t “change their thinking” or how many med trials …like why can’t there be a standard…you try x amount of things and then you can be offered comfort care to treat your illness. I work in medicine and that’s how people with medical illness get treated. You are right though I don’t think psychiatry really has a clue about causes of certain mental illnesses. That’s why their treatments suck as well
 
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Depressed Cat

Experienced
Jan 4, 2022
240
Let's face it. Psychiatry is not like other branches of medicine. It lags behind other medicinal branches by decades, if not centuries.

In some Third World countries, they treat the mentally ill in extremely cruel and torturous ways. Some are chained to their beds, others are kept in cage-like structures like animals. Even now, in some hellholes, they forcibly give electro-convulsive therapy without anesthesia. Extremely barbaric!

Psychiatric drugs are also not like drugs to treat physical illnesses. If drugs to treat physical illnesses are 90% scientifically proven and 10% hope, then psychiatric drugs are merely 50% scientifically proven and 50% hope.

So whichever psychiatric drug is prescribed for a mental illness, there is only a 50% chance of it actually working. The other 50% is left to luck (the psychiatrist hoping that it will work).

Also, psychiatric drugs are not like normal drugs. Normal medicines also have side-effects, but psychiatric drugs can sometimes actually worsen the condition it was prescribed for. Some anti-depressants and anti-psychotics can actually make people more suicidal and drive them to suicide!

Psychiatrists also often misdiagnose mental illnesses and prescribe the wrong medicines which can worsen things. I was also a victim of this. I have major depression but a psychiatrist once misdiagnosed me as having schizophrenia and she prescribed anti-psychotics which worsened my condition by also inducing anxiety attacks!

So, to conclude, psychiatry is a hopelessly laggard branch of medicine and is quite often very imprecise in diagnosis & treatment.

Even as of now, mentally ill patients are merely guinea pigs for psychiatry, psychiatrists and pharmaceutical companies.

If psychiatric euthanasia is allowed, where will the psychiatrists and pharma companies go for their paying guinea pigs??? It's for this reason that psychiatric euthanasia will never become widespread.
 
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lostautist

lostautist

wandering
Jan 12, 2022
139
Clinical Psychiatry is slowly dying with most practitioners transitioning into various cognitive neuroscience studies. This can't happen fast enough, imo. The old methods of checkbox DSM diagnosis and throwing recommended meds at the proverbial wall to see what sticks is moving aside to more modern diagnostics with genetics, neuroimaging and modeling. I don't know many people who have had positive results from psychiatrists... mostly very horrible outcomes because it was mostly a guessing game of what the problem actually was and how to treat that set of symptoms without a genuine diagnosis based on evidence. Some psychiatric therapy could still apply to psychology, but much of the barbaric process needs to die like Phrenology.

I don't think psychiatrists should have the power of euthanasia and determining sound judgement to approve or deny. It should just be an individual's right to go. I do believe that there should be a set of standards that dissuades the erratic or impulsive from it but I'm not certain how that should be applied, if at all. A bad test grade or a broken heart probably shouldn't be considered a reasonable cause. But it shouldn't be overly prohibitive either. It should just be attainable.
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
I only mean because they can also prescribe the meds to make you comfortable and end your life. Sure you could take your chances and could get drugs on the street and do the same. I also understand needing to make the process of psychiatric euthanasia official by having two doctors give professional opinions which is what I believe happens in Belgium, Netherlands. Doctors can prescribe all meds even ones to end your life

Back to my comparison with cancer, Couldn’t you also consider doctors prescribing chemo torturers? Have you ever witness chemo infusions? Pretty torturous as well
@westie22 If someone wanted to stop chemotherapy, explicitly did not consent to it, and was forced into it anyway? Yes, I would consider that torture. Absolutely.

@Depressed Cat The United States is one of the places where people are forced into electro-convulsive shock.

@lostautist Even if neuroimaging confirms a disease or degenerative condition in someone's brain, that doesn't give anyone the right to violate their autonomy and self-determination.
 
lostautist

lostautist

wandering
Jan 12, 2022
139
@lostautist Even if neuroimaging confirms a disease or degenerative condition in someone's brain, that doesn't give anyone the right to violate their autonomy and self-determination.

No, it shouldn't. It should allow for more accurate diagnosis and more effective treatment options. DSM checkboxing is archaic.
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
@westie22 If someone wanted to stop chemotherapy, explicitly did not consent to it, and was forced into it anyway? Yes, I would consider that torture. Absolutely.

@Depressed Cat The United States is one of the places where people are forced into electro-convulsive shock.

@lostautist Even if neuroimaging confirms a disease or degenerative condition in someone's brain, that doesn't give anyone the right to violate their autonomy and self-determination.
Where do they force people into it? Can you site examples and sources? I did ect and had to give informed consent just like any other procedure. There was no forcing. I signed up for it because the alternative was suicide. Are you talking about historically? I didn’t see anyone being forced into it the months I did it. I just want example and sources so I can make sure you have info to back up what you’re saying and not just contributing to stigma..
Let's face it. Psychiatry is not like other branches of medicine. It lags behind other medicinal branches by decades, if not centuries.

In some Third World countries, they treat the mentally ill in extremely cruel and torturous ways. Some are chained to their beds, others are kept in cage-like structures like animals. Even now, in some hellholes, they forcibly give electro-convulsive therapy without anesthesia. Extremely barbaric!

Psychiatric drugs are also not like drugs to treat physical illnesses. If drugs to treat physical illnesses are 90% scientifically proven and 10% hope, then psychiatric drugs are merely 50% scientifically proven and 50% hope.

So whichever psychiatric drug is prescribed for a mental illness, there is only a 50% chance of it actually working. The other 50% is left to luck (the psychiatrist hoping that it will work).

Also, psychiatric drugs are not like normal drugs. Normal medicines also have side-effects, but psychiatric drugs can sometimes actually worsen the condition it was prescribed for. Some anti-depressants and anti-psychotics can actually make people more suicidal and drive them to suicide!

Psychiatrists also often misdiagnose mental illnesses and prescribe the wrong medicines which can worsen things. I was also a victim of this. I have major depression but a psychiatrist once misdiagnosed me as having schizophrenia and she prescribed anti-psychotics which worsened my condition by also inducing anxiety attacks!

So, to conclude, psychiatry is a hopelessly laggard branch of medicine and is quite often very imprecise in diagnosis & treatment.

Even as of now, mentally ill patients are merely guinea pigs for psychiatry, psychiatrists and pharmaceutical companies.

If psychiatric euthanasia is allowed, where will the psychiatrists and pharma companies go for their paying guinea pigs??? It's for this reason that psychiatric euthanasia will never become widespread.
Again can you give specific examples where ect is still practiced this way? And I Understand what you said about history but that’s not what happens today in the United States at least …so specific examples that are current is what I’m asking for. I
had many ect treatments under general anesthesia and always was asked for informed consent. Not saying this didn’t happen historically but that’s not how it’s practiced at least in the US now. I was surrounded by ect patients for a year and everyone gave consent and had anesthesia. Can you site specific examples of where this is happening? Just so I can understand you aren’t of coming from an angle of misinformation leading to more stigma
 
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Depressed Cat

Experienced
Jan 4, 2022
240
Again can you give specific examples where ect is still practiced this way? And I Understand what you said about history but that’s not what happens today in the United States at least …so specific examples that are current is what I’m asking for. I
had many ect treatments under general anesthesia and always was asked for informed consent. Not saying this didn’t happen historically but that’s not how it’s practiced at least in the US now. I was surrounded by ect patients for a year and everyone gave consent and had anesthesia. Can you site specific examples of where this is happening? Just so I can understand you aren’t of coming from an angle of misinformation leading to more stigma

You're talking about the procedure as it's done now in the United States.

I clearly mentioned it is done without anesthesia in some Third World hellholes even today.

I have examples. I'm not going to provide a specific example that gives my location away, but examples in general. Here they are:

Indications

Providing general anesthesia for ECT is essential in every case and is only done without anesthesia in developing countries where proper equipment and personnel are not available. ECT is a first-line treatment for several disorders.

Source:

Results: The process of administering ECT at the hospital is described. During the study period, of a total of 5240 patients who were admitted to the hospital, 1520 (29%) were administered ECT. Of these, 1352 (88.9%) did not get any kind of anesthesia during the procedure. The mean age of patients was 34.89 years.

Source:
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
You're talking about the procedure as it's done now in the United States.

I clearly mentioned it is done without anesthesia in some Third World hellholes even today.

I have examples. I'm not going to provide a specific example that gives my location away, but examples in general. Here they are:



Source:



Source:
Those look like interesting articles to read further thanks for providing! I appreciate you following up on that. I’m not an ect advocate. I just hate how everything you do for pysch treatments has to be secretive because somewhere someone is treating people atrociously but in other places not so much. I could never admit to people I did ect because no one understands. Some people have life changing results. Good for them. I didn’t. I just hate that I can’t talk about it openly because of so many negative opinions
@westie22 If someone wanted to stop chemotherapy, explicitly did not consent to it, and was forced into it anyway? Yes, I would consider that torture. Absolutely.

@Depressed Cat The United States is one of the places where people are forced into electro-convulsive shock.

@lostautist Even if neuroimaging confirms a disease or degenerative condition in someone's brain, that doesn't give anyone the right to violate their autonomy and self-determination.
I don’t know anyone who is typically forced into chemotherapy? Maybe family encouragement. But you give informed consent. My point is that is a doctor knowingly providing a treatment that is harmful to the body and horrendous but with the hope it cures a disease. But again it’s with a hope..it’s not a given. You give consent for the torture of chemo. Just like I give consent for all the horrendous psych meds I’ve taken over the years. Unless you have court mandated meds..it’s always your choice to take what a psychiatrist offers you. And up to you to do your own research about your diagnosis and condition, side effects of treatments, etc.
 
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myopybyproxy

Experienced
Dec 18, 2021
235
I don’t know anyone who is typically forced into chemotherapy? Maybe family encouragement. But you give informed consent. My point is that is a doctor knowingly providing a treatment that is harmful to the body and horrendous but with the hope it cures a disease. But again it’s with a hope..it’s not a given. You give consent for the torture of chemo. Just like I give consent for all the horrendous psych meds I’ve taken over the years. Unless you have court mandated meds..it’s always your choice to take what a psychiatrist offers you. And up to you to do your own research about your diagnosis and condition, side effects of treatments, etc.
On another note - court mandated psychotropic medication - an egregious violation of informed consent and bodily autonomy - must stop.
 
W

westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
Have no doubt that psychiatrists will force and manipulate people into this, just like they force and manipulate people into everything else.

Respect people's right to end their own lives if they choose. Don't bring psychiatrists into the process. They are torturers and murderers already

I’m ready to be forced and manipulated into this. Especially like in your view, if I’ve been “forced and manipulated” (which isn’t true i consented to all my horrendous treatment hoping to find an alternative to suicide) to do all these other treatments, why not the one I want? Sign me up to be forced and manipulated for psychiatric euthanasia
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
@westie22 - Sure, definitely.

A legal battle Charles Helmer of Minnesota had to fight because he was being forced into ECT

Ray Sandford forced to undergo ECT which took a community of disability rights activists a very long time to stop


Court forced Connecticut man into electric shock

Connecticut hospitals still allowed to use ECT without consent

Simone D. sues New York State for forcing her to undergo ECT

Glen K. forcibly shocked in New York state hospital

University of Flordia hospital assault patient and force into ECT, long legal battle before this stops happening to him regularly


Adults under guardianship or ruled incompetent forced into ECT in Michigan

Archived version of NPR report on Illinois doctors petitioning court to force octogenerian into ECT

California state government policy paper on when the state will sentence people to non-consensual ECT

Hope this helps.
I am glad that you, personally, have not been forced or manipulated into anything like this.
Do not misconstrue my words ("Like in your view."). I did not say that you, personally, were one of the people being subject to psychiatric force and manipulation.
If you are "ready for it" and saying "sign me up for it," then by definition, you are not one of the people being forced (who by definition do not consent or want it.)
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
Where do they force people into it? Can you site examples and sources? I did ect and had to give informed consent just like any other procedure. There was no forcing. I signed up for it because the alternative was suicide. Are you talking about historically? I didn’t see anyone being forced into it the months I did it. I just want example and sources so I can make sure you have info to back up what you’re saying and not just contributing to stigma..
Hi Westie22, to be friendly and helpful I provided ten of the examples and sources you asked for. Have you had a chance to look at them yet?
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
Hi Westie22, to be friendly and helpful I provided ten of the examples and sources you asked for. Have you had a chance to look at them yet?
I’m not participating at all in this site anymore after all of the backlash I received. I did not find the open minded, understanding community I was looking for. Good luck with your struggles. I hope you find the peace you are looking for.
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
I'm sorry you're unwilling to admit you were wrong, and instead choose to ignore and blame victims of forced electroshock torture.
And I'm sorry you've again chosen to lie, misattribute words to me, and say I was "looking for peace."
"The peace you are looking for."
What a stinking load.
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
I'm sorry you're unwilling to admit you were wrong, and instead choose to ignore and blame victims of forced electroshock torture.
And I'm sorry you've again chosen to lie, misattribute words to me, and say I was "looking for peace."
"The peace you are looking for."
What a stinking load.
Thank you for making my point.
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
What's your point, @westie22 ?
Any willingness to acknowledge the widespread torture yet?
Oh, wait... lmao... was I supposed to be "accepting and understanding" of your ass lying about me?
Oh, wait... lmao... was I supposed to be "accepting and understanding" of your ass lying about me?
 
Moomin17

Moomin17

Member
Jan 14, 2022
26
What do they inject into the patient's body if this option gets approved?

I heard 20 yo Dutch boy complained about his major depression, after weeks of consultation and whatnot they granted him the right to die. And sedated him. With what material I wonder? 🤔
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
Westie, are you ready to apologize for your crass and insensitive remarks about "I'm ready to be forced into this" when so many fucking people are actually assaulted in this way?
 
W

westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
Westie, are you ready to apologize for your crass and insensitive remarks about "I'm ready to be forced into this" when so many fucking people are actually assaulted in this way?
If you would read the post correctly, that was in reference to psychiatric euthanasia. Not in reference to ECT at all. You can’t even keep the discussions straight. Double check your reading before being so aggressive and threatening.

You ready to apologize for your mistake yet?
What do they inject into the patient's body if this option gets approved?

I heard 20 yo Dutch boy complained about his major depression, after weeks of consultation and whatnot they granted him the right to die. And sedated him. With what material I wonder? 🤔
I’m not sure. I think one of the articles I read may have mentioned it, but I can’t remember. I want to say a cocktail that includes a barbiturate.
 
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T

TheBestUsernameEver

Member
Dec 26, 2021
81
Why do people get to treat mental illness like it can’t be “end stage”? Like we think of for medical illnesses like for example cancer. When you’ve exhausted all canacer treatments, you get to be admitted to
Palliative care or hospice to be able to die comfortably. Why don’t people with mental illness get to die comfortably? If I’m treatment resistant, as deemed by my doctor, isn’t that sort of end stage bipolar disorder? Just like end stage cancer? Why do I have to die by gun?

In certain European countries they have psychiatric euthanasia for cases like this. Why not in the US? Show us some empathy, compassion, and humanity instead of letting us suffer!!
We should not attempt to form equivalencies between treatable mental health issues and terminal illnesses such as cancer.

1. The vast majority of mental health conditions are not inherently deteriorating illnesses. That is to say that although they may become worse over fixed periods of time, they can also get better.

2. The vast majority of mental health conditions are treatable, and the vast majority of people with mental health issues go on to recover or manage their condition.

Further to point 2: even if we were to argue that not everybody recovers, the fact is that we don't know who will or who won't. All we do know is that the majority do recover or reach a stage where their condition is manageable.

I am a prime example of this.
Having suffered from depression for years to the point where I was convinced that I wouldn't get better, I attempted to end my life.
Thankfully it didn't work as I'm now recovering and am the happiest I have been in years.
 
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noaccount

Wizard
Oct 26, 2019
653
@westie22 - I know you were saying you were ready for a psychiatrist to kill you / have you killed.
It's still a very insensitive way to frame the issue when so many people are already assaulted, tortured, and sometimes killed by psychiatrists and other mental health workers.
I did not threaten you in any way.

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE CASES OF PEOPLE BEING FORCED INTO ECT.
So when are you going to stop participating like you promised?
 
W

westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
We should not attempt to form equivalencies between treatable mental health issues and terminal illnesses such as cancer.

1. The vast majority of mental health conditions are not inherently deteriorating illnesses. That is to say that although they may become worse over fixed periods of time, they can also get better.

2. The vast majority of mental health conditions are treatable, and the vast majority of people with mental health issues go on to recover or manage their condition.

Further to point 2: even if we were to argue that not everybody recovers, the fact is that we don't know who will or who won't. All we do know is that the majority do recover or reach a stage where their condition is manageable.

I am a prime example of this.
Having suffered from depression for years to the point where I was convinced that I wouldn't get better, I attempted to end my life.
Thankfully it didn't work as I'm now recovering and am the happiest I have been in years.
I understand your points. I’m glad you recovered. I’ve been suffering for 22 years and have been told by my mental health treatment team that I don’t have any options left. You still think I should just have to suffer until the end of my natural life? Or end my life by potentially painful, violent means? Not everyone recovers.
@westie22 - I know you were saying you were ready for a psychiatrist to kill you / have you killed.
It's still a very insensitive way to frame the issue when so many people are already assaulted, tortured, and sometimes killed by psychiatrists and other mental health workers.
I did not threaten you in any way.

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE CASES OF PEOPLE BEING FORCED INTO ECT.
So when are you going to stop participating like you promised?
It’s hilarious to me that you are calling out another person as insensitive.

Read the post. I’ve acknowledged it. You just are on some sort of rageful tangent when I tried to wish you well and stop interacting with you. Please leave me alone and stop harassing me.
 
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TheBestUsernameEver

Member
Dec 26, 2021
81
I understand your points. I’m glad you recovered. I’ve been suffering for 22 years and have been told by my mental health treatment team that I don’t have any options left. You still think I should just have to suffer until the end of my natural life? Or end my life by potentially painful, violent means? Not everyone recovers.
May I ask what condition(s) you have?
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
May I ask what condition(s) you have?
Treatment resistant bipolar disorder is my psychiatric condition but I have other medical conditions as well

Always been medication compliant, seeing mental professionals regularly, no substance abuse. I’ve done everything asked of me even treatments I’d never thought I’d do like ECT. I’ve lost more than I’ve gained from mental health treatment. My life is miserable, and I want to die every moment.

Still think I don’t deserve mercy to end the suffering?
 
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westie22

Member
Jan 14, 2022
60
There have been kind people who have reached out to me and made me realize the problem I’ve had with this forum isn’t with the community..it’s with you. I’m not really sure why you are allowed to be part of it because you constantly break the rules, but that’s not up to me.

I have kindly asked you to leave me alone. What don’t you understand when someone asks you to leave them alone? You are adding nothing constructive but hate to this post.
 
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