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X

x_riverrock11

Enlightened
Jan 24, 2021
1,652
“The demand that the people should shake itself free of illusion as to its own condition is the demand that it should abandon a condition which needs illusion.” -Karl Marx
What is your opinion on the secularization of Western culture? My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), is that Marx was referring to religion here. I do respect that the quote can have a broader applicability though.
 
domedune

domedune

the stars will aid my escape
Dec 18, 2019
190
When I am dead, my dearest,
Sing no sad songs for me;
Plant thou no roses at my head,
Nor shady cypress tree:
Be the green grass above me
With showers and dewdrops wet;
And if thou wilt, remember,
And if thou wilt, forget.
- Christina Rossetti

(Quoted by @leaf4 in another thread. I really liked this one and had to post it here.)
 
X

x_riverrock11

Enlightened
Jan 24, 2021
1,652
life itself is not the miracle.
that pain should be so constant,
that's the miracle -
that hammer of the thing
when you can't even scream or weep
and it sits all over you
looking into your eyes
eating your flesh.

morning night and noon
the traffic moves through
and the murder and treachery
of friends and lovers
and all the people
move through you.

pain is the joy of knowing
the unkindest truth
that arrives without warning.

life is being alone
death is being alone.

even the fools weep

morning, night, and noon.

- Charles, Bukowski
 
puppet_nihilist

puppet_nihilist

cogito, ergo sum
Jan 8, 2021
150
What is your opinion on the secularization of Western culture? My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), is that Marx was referring to religion here. I do respect that the quote can have a broader applicability though.
I'm neither a westerner nor am I a European and I barely know anything about Karl Marx or the context behind this quote so I'm not exactly capable of forming any opinions about what you asked. But I think, stripped away from all its context, the quote perfectly captures how harmful the delusions that we feed ourselves with to prolong our lives are. Thus life should be abandoned immediately. I knew right away that the quote had its own context since I also knew that Karl Marx was heavily involved in politics and economics, but I was also glad I got to read it without knowing the exact context lol.
 
X

x_riverrock11

Enlightened
Jan 24, 2021
1,652
I was so surprised the first time I read this full quote:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."
I would have been interested to see what a conversation between Schopenhauer and Marx would have looked like. Some preliminary searching on Reddit indicates they would not have gotten along. Schopenhauer seems to hold more respect for religion

“Religion is the metaphysics of the people, which we must absolutely allow them and therefore outwardly respect; for to discredit it means to deprive them of it.” - Arthur Schopenhauer

Grumpy ol’ Arty is described as an idealist and Marx a materialist. I don’t know much past philosophy 101 shit to know much about how much they differ besides those two labels being opposed.
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
I would have been interested to see what a conversation between Schopenhauer and Marx would have looked like. Some preliminary searching on Reddit indicates they would not have gotten along. Schopenhauer seems to hold more respect for religion

“Religion is the metaphysics of the people, which we must absolutely allow them and therefore outwardly respect; for to discredit it means to deprive them of it.” - Arthur Schopenhauer

Grumpy ol’ Arty is described as an idealist and Marx a materialist. I don’t know much past philosophy 101 shit to know much about how much they differ besides those two labels being opposed.

Marx was foolishly optimistic about the future. S would have definitely laughed in his face. :devil:
S had a soft spot for Buddhism & he supposedly respected Christianity, but he dismissed faith in God & said stuff like this:
"Religion is a masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think."
He was basically an atheist & a smug misanthrope who thought that ordinary folks should continue to cling to religion because they were irrelevant dumb animals anyway :haha:
 
X

x_riverrock11

Enlightened
Jan 24, 2021
1,652
Marx was foolishly optimistic about the future. S would have definitely laughed in his face. :devil:
S had a soft spot for Buddhism & he supposedly respected Christianity, but he dismissed faith in God & said stuff like this:
"Religion is a masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think."
He was basically an atheist & a smug misanthrope who thought that ordinary folks should continue to cling to religion because they were irrelevant dumb animals anyway :haha:
That makes sense. For ever semi-uplifting thing I read about Schopenhauer, I read another about how he was a smug, grumpy asshole, lol. I read a very long paper on how he still, despite his OG pessimism, is anti-suicide. He believed it was better to find enlightenment. Unless you starve to death to give a big middle finger to the SI, you failed.
 
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BottomlessPit

BottomlessPit

Staring at the edge
Apr 28, 2021
427
I read another about how he was a smug, grumpy asshole, lol
I may be misremembering, but didn't he push a prostitute down the stairs because of some disagreement :ahhha:. She was injured and he had to pay her money up until her death.
I read a very long paper on how he still, despite his OG pessimism, is anti-suicide. He believed it was better to find enlightenment. Unless you starve to death to give a big middle finger to the SI, you failed.
This part of his philosophy puzzles me to no end. He says that suicide is an expression of The Will, since the suicidal believes that it is a way to alleviate suffering and achieve peace. Desires which are inherently caused by The Will.
But killing oneself is the direct antithesis to the Will to live. There is no other way to escape the Will than to extinguish ones sentience and desires, since to live is to be imprisoned by desire.
Maybe he didn't want to endorse suicide because he knew that it would greatly diminish his reputation as a philosopher. So instead he made up some bs to appease the majority and called it day.

(Btw welcome back!)
 
X

x_riverrock11

Enlightened
Jan 24, 2021
1,652
I may be misremembering, but didn't he push a prostitute down the stairs because of some disagreement :ahhha:. She was injured and he had to pay her money up until her death.

This part of his philosophy puzzles me to no end. He says that suicide is an expression of The Will, since the suicidal believes that it is a way to alleviate suffering and achieve peace. Desires which are inherently caused by The Will.
But killing oneself is the direct antithesis to the Will to live. There is no other way to escape the Will than to extinguish ones sentience and desires, since to live is to be imprisoned by desire.
Maybe he didn't want to endorse suicide because he knew that it would greatly diminish his reputation as a philosopher. So instead he made up some bs to appease the majority and called it day.

(Btw welcome back!)
I don’t think so. The paper linked is long, but it makes a strong case that Schopenhauer disavowed suicide - and not just with a handful of throwaway lines.


The gist of it is that believed that people commit suicide because The Will wants to escape a bad host and because people are upset with their circumstances and don’t want to endure pain (The Will doesn’t either), not to deny The Will.

The Will sounds like an almost parasitic entity that lives through us and all other living things - like the Tao but evil and constrained to sentient life.

He seemed to believe that you could achieve Enlightenment and escape The Will. It’s not clear to me at all how anyone can.
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
He seemed to believe that you could achieve Enlightenment and escape The Will. It’s not clear to me at all how anyone can.
That's because S loved sucking the Buddha's "enlightened" dick. Of course it's ridiculous to believe that a human being can escape "the inner essence of everything", but why worry about basic logic when you can suck a delicious magical Indian dick instead? :love:

Not that I need permission from that inconsistent curmudgeonly bitch :haha:, but he also wrote this:
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it; and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person."
-- from Studies in Pessimism: The Essays

Btw, he really should have come up with a better term than the Will for a blind, unconscious, aimless striving. A total misnomer.

The woman he pushed down the stairs (for talking too loudly) wasn't a hooker, she was his neighbor, a high-end seamstress, & she became partially disabled after the incident. Is it just me or did he look & occasionally act like a fucking koala bear from hell?

Schopenhauer_185211.jpg

wet-koalas-are-scary_o_3457989.jpg
 
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X

x_riverrock11

Enlightened
Jan 24, 2021
1,652
That's because S loved sucking the Buddha's "enlightened" dick. Of course it's ridiculous to believe that a human being can escape "the inner essence of everything", but why worry about basic logic when you can suck a delicious magical Indian dick instead? :love:

Not that I need permission from that inconsistent curmudgeonly bitch :haha:, but he also wrote this:
"They tell us that suicide is the greatest piece of cowardice; that only a madman could be guilty of it; and other insipidities of the same kind; or else they make the nonsensical remark that suicide is wrong; when it is quite obvious that there is nothing in the world to which every man has a more unassailable title than to his own life and person."
-- from Studies in Pessimism: The Essays

Btw, he really should have come up with a better term than the Will for a blind, unconscious, aimless striving. A total misnomer.

The woman he pushed down the stairs (for talking too loudly) wasn't a hooker, she was his neighbor, a high-end seamstress, & she became partially disabled after the incident. Is it just me or did he look & occasionally act like a fucking koala bear from hell?

Schopenhauer_185211.jpg

wet-koalas-are-scary_o_3457989.jpg
You should find an academic philosopher who is active on Twitter and show them this side-by-side comparison.
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
Are you hungry?
Are you sick?
Are you begging for a break?
Are you sweet?
Are you fresh?
Are you strung up by the wrists?
We want the young blood

Are you fracturing?
Are you torn at the seams?
Would you do anything?
Flea-bitten, moth-eaten?
We suck young blood
We suck young blood

-- Thom Yorke
 
Voûte_Étoilée

Voûte_Étoilée

1+1=3
Apr 28, 2021
1,263

“I don't believe in God. Can you understand that? Look around you man. Can’t you see? The clamor and din of those in torment has to be the sound most pleasing to his ear. And I loathe these discussions. The argument of the village atheist whose single passion is to revile endlessly that which he denies the existence of in the first place. Your fellowship is a fellowship of pain and nothing more. And if that pain were actually collective instead of simply reiterative then the sheer weight of it would drag the world from the walls of the universe and send it crashing and burning through whatever night it might yet be capable of engendering until it was not even ash. And justice? Brotherhood? Eternal life? Good god, man. Show me a religion that prepares one for death. For nothingness. There's a church I might enter. Yours prepares one only for more life. For dreams and illusions and lies. If you could banish the fear of death from men's hearts they wouldn't live a day. Who would want this nightmare if not for fear of the next? The shadow of the axe hangs over every joy. Every road ends in death. Or worse. Every friendship. Every love. Torment, betrayal, loss, suffering, pain, age, indignity, and hideous lingering illness. All with a single conclusion. For you and for every one and everything that you have chosen to care for. There's the true brotherhood. The true fellowship. And everyone is a member for life. You tell me that my brother is my salvation? My salvation? Well then damn him. Damn him in every shape and form and guise. Do I see myself in him? Yes. I do. And what I see sickens me. Do you understand me? Can you understand me?”


― Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw.
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats' feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar.

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to Death's other Kingdom
Remember us - if at all - not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

-- T. S. Eliot
 
deflationary

deflationary

Fussy exister. Living in the epilogue
Mar 11, 2020
527
"I’m such a negative person, and always have been. Was I born that way? I don’t know. I am constantly disgusted by reality, horrified and afraid. I cling desperately to the few things that give me some solace, that make me feel good.

I hate most of humanity. Though I might be very fond of particular individuals, humanity in general fills me with contempt and despair. I hate most of what passes for civilization. I hate the modern world. For one thing there are just too Goddamn many people. I hate the hordes, the crowds in their vast cities, with all their hateful vehicles, their noise and their constant meaningless comings and goings. I hate cars. I hate modern architecture. Every building built after 1955 should be torn down!

I despise modern music. Words cannot express how much it gets on my nerves – the false, pretentious, smug assertiveness of it. I hate business, having to deal with money. Money is one of the most hateful inventions of the human race. I hate the commodity culture, in which everything is bought and sold. No stone is left unturned. I hate the mass media, and how passively people suck up to it.

I hate having to get up in the morning and face another day of this insanity. I hate having to eat, shit, maintain the body – I hate my body. The thought of my internal functions, the organs, digestion, the brain, the nervous system, horrify me.

Nature is horrible. It’s not cute and loveable. It’s kill or be killed. It’s very dangerous out there. The natural world is filled with scary, murderous creatures and forces. I hate the whole way that nature functions. Sex is especially hateful and horrifying, the male penetrating the female, his dick goes into her hole, she’s impregnated, another being grows inside her, and then she must go through a painful ordeal as the new being pushes out of her, only to repeat the whole process in time.

Reproduction – what could be more existentially repulsive?

How I hate the courting ritual. I was always repelled by my own sex drive, which in my youth never left me alone. I was constantly driven by frustrated desires to do bizarre and unacceptable things with and to women. My soul was in constant conflict about it. I never was able to resolve it.

Old age is the only relief.

I hate the way the human psyche works, the way we are traumatized and stupidly imprinted in early childhood and have to spend the rest of our lives trying to overcome these infantile mental fixations. And we never ever fully succeed in this endeavor.

I hate organized religions. I hate governments. It’s all a lot of power games played out by ambition-driven people, and foisted on the weak, the poor, and on children.

Most humans are bullies. Adults pick on children. Older children pick on younger children. Men bully women. The rich bully the poor. People love to dominate.

I hate the way humans worship power – one of the most disgusting of all human traits.

I hate the human tendency towards revenge and vindictiveness. I hate the way humans are constantly trying to trick and deceive one another, to swindle, to cheat, and take unfair advantage of the innocent, the naïve and the ignorant.

I hate the vacuous, false, banal conversation that goes on among people.

Sometimes I feel suffocated; I want to flee from it.

For me, to be human is, for the most part, to hate what I am. When I suddenly realize that I am one of them, I want to scream in horror."

-Robert Crumb
 
Voûte_Étoilée

Voûte_Étoilée

1+1=3
Apr 28, 2021
1,263
For us there is only one season, the season of sorrow. The very sun and moon seem taken from us. Outside, the day may be blue and gold, but the light that creeps down through the thickly-muffled glass of the small iron-barred window beneath which one sits is grey and niggard. It is always twilight in one's cell, as it is always twilight in one's heart. And in the sphere of thought, no less than in the sphere of time, motion is no more. The thing that you personally have long ago forgotten, or can easily forget, is happening to me now, and will happen to me again to-morrow.
- Oscar Wilde, De Profundis
 
P

paradiselock

Member
Sep 19, 2021
12
"You don't think in depression that you've put on a gray veil and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood. You think that the veil has been taken away, the veil of happiness, and that now you're seeing truly." -Andrew Solomon in The Noonday Demon
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"Even crazy people like to be asked." -The Hours
 
O

ophelia_

Member
Aug 26, 2021
28
I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.

The nine-to-five is one of the greatest atrocities sprung upon mankind. You give your life away to a function that doesn’t interest you.

Hello, Death. But I’ve had almost 6 decades. I’ve given you so many clean shots at me what I should have been yours long ago. I want to be buried near the racetrack… where I can hear the stretch run.

-Charles Bukowski (the master)


Hell is empty and the devils are here

-William Shakespeare
 
AtMostOkay

AtMostOkay

Screw your courage to the sticking place.
Jun 29, 2021
763
Of all the things you choose in life, you don't get to choose what your nightmares are. You don't pick them, they pick you. - John Irving
 
motel rooms

motel rooms

So sodomitic.
Apr 13, 2021
5,906
When man
enters woman,
like the surf biting the shore,
again and again,
and the woman opens her mouth with pleasure
and her teeth gleam
like the alphabet,
Logos appears milking a star,
and the man
inside of woman
ties a knot
so that they will
never again be separate
and the woman
climbs into a flower
and swallows its stem
and Logos appears
and unleashes their rivers.

This man,
this woman,
with their double hunger,
have tried to reach through
the curtain of God
and briefly they have,
though God
in His perversity
unties the knot.

-- Anne Sexton
 
AtMostOkay

AtMostOkay

Screw your courage to the sticking place.
Jun 29, 2021
763
Well, you seemed to live your life like a candle in the wind, never knowing who to cling to when the rain set in. I would have like to have known you, but I was just a kid. Your candle burned out long before your legend ever did. - Bernie Taupin
 
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deflationary

deflationary

Fussy exister. Living in the epilogue
Mar 11, 2020
527
It would be wrong to refuse to face the fact that everything is fundamentally sick and sad.

- Thomas Bernhard

You don't think in depression that you've put on a gray veil and are seeing the world through the haze of a bad mood. You think that the veil has been taken away, the veil of happiness, and that now you're seeing truly." -Andrew Solomon in The Noonday Demon
I presume he comes to deny this position by the end of the book? I think there's no unveiled way of seeing tbh. Seeing is synonymous with seeing through a veil.