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GentleSoul

GentleSoul

Here, but not 'there'...
Dec 14, 2021
400
I loved the passion and all the dedication you put into writing this here, It was fun to read!

The closest thing available to the oldest, and most authentic writings of the Bible is King James' Version.

...King James was a Freemason.
 
Amumu

Amumu

Ctb - temporary solution for a permanent problem
Aug 29, 2020
2,582
I agree with everything but the eight point. Believing science made us happier is foolish.

Because not everyone has the strength to be an existentialist or an absurdist. Lots (and probably most nowadays) of atheists fall into nihilism, and when you're a nihilist, you can't be happy. And "optimistic nihilism" is just, in fact, old school existentialism, I don't know why they created the term.

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I don't even know why I'm trying to prove my point when 90% of people on a suicide forum are atheist, according to the last poll.
 
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Justsogone

Justsogone

An unlived life
Dec 14, 2021
73
Also if I CTB, no one would burry me as it’s a sin for them. I wanna be cremated anyways. Dont need a pastor. Just fry me up.
Also if I CTB, no one would burry me as it’s a sin for them. I wanna be cremated anyways. Dont need a pastor. Just fry me up.
You don't have to be regretful about hell
You already know It's pointless
 
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T

Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
I agree with everything but the eight point. Believing science made us happier is foolish.

Because not everyone has the strength to be an existentialist or an absurdist. Lots (and probably most nowadays) of atheists fall into nihilism, and when you're a nihilist, you can't be happy. And "optimistic nihilism" is just, in fact, old school existentialism, I don't know why they created the term.

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I don't even know why I'm trying to prove my point when 90% of people on a suicide forum are atheist, according to the last poll.
I'm not sure what you mean because you talked about philosophy in your post not science...
I loved the passion and all the dedication you put into writing this here, It was fun to read!

The closest thing available to the oldest, and most authentic writings of the Bible is King James' Version.

...King James was a Freemason.
Yeah I have a lot of these thought and no one to say them too so it probably comes out a bit...passionate haha when I finally get to get it out.
Haha. I’m agnostic Catholic and hell won’t stop me from CTB. There isn’t truly a hell. Our understanding of hell is from Dante’s Inferno which is essentially hell fan fiction - if that helps lol.
That and those wack Hieronymus Bosch paintings. I'm sure that guy was high as fuck.
 
Rational man

Rational man

Specialist
Oct 19, 2021
394
Thirdly, if God does indeed send people to hell he is a sadistic bastard. T
'He' must be very busy evaluating everyone. Maybe ' hell' is in our own mind. The Adam and Eve story is enough to scare anyone because humankind has failed. Im going to hell apparently because i bypassed Eve and fukced Adam.
 
T

Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
'He' must be very busy evaluating everyone. Maybe ' hell' is in our own mind. The Adam and Eve story is enough to scare anyone because humankind has failed. Im going to hell apparently because i bypassed Eve and fukced Adam.
Good thing you're not going anywhere and it's all bullshit used to control the masses 😉
 
charlie_z

charlie_z

Student
Apr 30, 2018
183
I really like your post and it does have a calming effect.

My fear is that there are, in fact, many accounts of NDEs, and I worry that my perception of time at the moments immediately before my death would feel like an eternity. I have experienced altered states of consciousness, and I know firsthand that even if heaven and hell are empirically unsubstantiated nonsense stories (and I mostly agree with this position), our consciousness can certainly create very vivid states. Bearing that in mind, we also don't really have any evidence that the subjective experiencing of heaven and hell as states of consciousness is not possible. If I am in agonizing distress before I end my life, how can I ensure that that feeling of distress doesn't last an eternity when I stop perceiving time the way I normally do in my conscious waking state?

Anyway, this isn't at all an argument -- just some thoughts. I actually really appreciated your post for giving me more perspective on the idea of life after death. I hope nothingness is actually what happens after death.

About NDE’s I personally think they’re based on the individuals own beliefs. Not necessarily what the afterlife is actually like.
Yeah, I agree. There's a bit of science out there that indicates the brain is flushed with a wash of DMT when it knows it is dying. The mechanics of how and why this takes place is a little beyond me, but it seems DMT acts like a hallucinogenic. The hallucinogenic seems malleable to a person's preconception and wishes. The 'dying person (i.e., his or her brain) in essence takes themselves on the 'Final' journal, seeing and perceiving those people and life-elements important to their lifetime on earth. In other words, the 'voyage' or 'trip' described in NDEs is essentially the manifestation of an ego's wish-fulfillment made possible via biochemical reactions in the brain at the time of imminent death. Personally, I prefer the more romantic tale of angels, clouds, and the Pearly Gates. but more likely than not, we simply switch off at the moment of death. Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on, but I like where your comment was going.
 
G_Man

G_Man

Member
Dec 25, 2021
12
Imagine committing suicide to relieve your suffering and you end up in hell receiving eternal suffering.
 
rcpilot

rcpilot

Member
Dec 21, 2021
15
An enjoyable read and hopefully helps some understand atheism more fully. I'm also an atheist and you did miss one of my pet peaves about religion: prayer. Nothing fails like prayer and it is just so hard for me to accept that the failure isn't seen by those that practice it.

Another pet peave it when there is a lone survivor of an accident that kills many others, and the survivor thanks god for saving them. I guess to them it's okay that he killed all the others. Also, the fact that they survived is often the result of the EMT that saved their life, but they don't mention that.
 
T

Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
An enjoyable read and hopefully helps some understand atheism more fully. I'm also an atheist and you did miss one of my pet peaves about religion: prayer. Nothing fails like prayer and it is just so hard for me to accept that the failure isn't seen by those that practice it.

Another pet peave it when there is a lone survivor of an accident that kills many others, and the survivor thanks god for saving them. I guess to them it's okay that he killed all the others. Also, the fact that they survived is often the result of the EMT that saved their life, but they don't mention that.
Yeah the prayer thing...because sometimes prayers are 'answered' i.e. coincidence so you can beat your head against the wall with that one. You can cite studies and experiments but a really religious person will always have a personal example 'Well my aunt prayed and then this happened so take that atheists.' They always have some coincidental anecdote to keep their head in the sand.
And your other point, like surviving when others died. It's pretty sick. And usually people well say...well that's others that died, god wanted them back in heaven 😇 ugh it's sickening.
 
R

Romeo1984

Romeo must die
Oct 6, 2021
34
It's a shame I wanted to talk to Lucifer
One of the things I question. If "God created all things and they are good", who created evil?

Think about: Who was Lucifer?
God must have been bored and let his most perfect angel revolt, create an army and hell. So, who created (or allowed to create) hell in the stories of Catholicism?

If all this happened without God knowing it, then he is not omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says. Or he's wicked and let it all happen, according to his plan.
 
T

Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
One of the things I question. If "God created all things and they are good", who created evil?

Think about: Who was Lucifer?
God must have been bored and let his most perfect angel revolt, create an army and hell. So, who created (or allowed to create) hell in the stories of Catholicism?

If all this happened without God knowing it, then he is not omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says. Or he's wicked and let it all happen, according to his plan.
He's pretty much an asshole. There's no way around it. And a lot of Christian ideas come from later philosophers, artists and writers and not even from the Bible itself. And the Bible doesn't have anything going for it either being a hodge podge of anonymous writings decades and centuries after the fact.
 
M

MyStateKilledMe

Specialist
Apr 23, 2020
369
"Maybe this world is another planet's hell." (Aldous Huxley)

Also, look at my signature: No matter how bad this world is, it can't be any worse than whatever hell that might exist in the afterlife.
 
charlie_z

charlie_z

Student
Apr 30, 2018
183
the logic behind heaven and hell is so absurd that even a child could easily debunk it. I don't know how there are still so many people who believe that.
Ego wish-fulfillment. It's hard for many to imagine and accept that there's only nothingness after this life. Personally, I would love for there to be some more beautiful and peaceful state after this life, but my mind and heart tell me I'm being childish and to get on with the act of dying.
 
Samsal112

Samsal112

Member
Dec 20, 2021
80
This is not only a well thought out post, but it also offers a lot of peace. I notice on these boards that a lot of people come from abusive religious backgrounds. As you mentioned in your post, it can be hard to escape the falseness of religion when you have been raised on it. But, I think it is harder when you have not come from an abusive religious background. I was never a part of an abusive church and my family is pretty tolerant of all things and we don't have any beliefs that I would deem radical. I started questioning Christianity when I started reading literature from other religions and cultures. I remember a long time ago, a professor telling us that Dante's Inferno brought up suicide as a punishment and the Catholic church took that and ran with it. However, as pointed out in your articulate post, no where in the Bible is suicide called a sin. I have always found it odd how the Christian religion originates from Judaism and yet the two religions are so different. I mean, if we can't even agree on the afterlife, then how are we worshipping the same God? How do we support Jewish people while simultaneously declaring that Gentiles know better because we believe in Jesus Christ? The only thing that I can come up with is that the Christian religion was started because of the Jewish people's captivity in Rome, which was the birth of Catholicism. Then, as a History teacher, I know that other religions such as the Anglican Church came about due to changes to the Catholic religion. How can ONE God have so many different religions? The idea of Jesus Christ is such a western religion; you get to commit sins without any real determination to a God or religion and you're still saved and forgiven. Other religions require their followers to commit and live a certain life. I read that the Bible actually mentions other gods because at that time there was a belief that other gods existed but that the Jewish people believed THAT god was the one true God. So, it then looks as any other religion or creation story. I am rambling, but my point is that maybe with some research, most people would be godless.
 
zeroornothing

zeroornothing

Global Mod “Ye shall be as gods..🐍🍎”
Jun 22, 2021
1,907
I am rambling, but my point is that maybe with some research, most people would be godless.
is it really that great to be godless though?
Cant we find some beneficial lessons in the themes and ideas of godliness without having to uphold all the religious baggage?
 
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Samsal112

Samsal112

Member
Dec 20, 2021
80
is it really that great to be godless though?
Cant we find some beneficial lessons in the themes and ideas of godliness without having to uphold all the religious baggage?
I guess it depends on your definition of godless. If you're suggesting that godless is evil or lack of social awareness, than that's not what I was speaking of. I mean people wouldn't worship a God. But, yes, there are some helpful themes in religions that make for a less chaotic life such is found in Proverbs. But, you can practice stoicism without religion, which is a beneficial way of living and existing.
 
zeroornothing

zeroornothing

Global Mod “Ye shall be as gods..🐍🍎”
Jun 22, 2021
1,907
I guess it depends on your definition of godless. If you're suggesting that godless is evil or lack of social awareness, than that's not what I was speaking of. I mean people wouldn't worship a God. But, yes, there are some helpful themes in religions that make for a less chaotic life such is found in Proverbs. But, you can practice stoicism without religion, which is a beneficial way of living and existing.
To me its not so much about personal practice as the principle of governing force in the universe where justice transcends material existence and death. If people believed they can get away with whatever they do, it is counterproductive to maintaining minimal suffering that goes on in the world
 
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paulstrong

paulstrong

Paragon
May 5, 2020
993
I am agnostic. I am open to possibilities but not fussed if there is nothing after death either. Great post by the way. People need to not fear the unknown and acknowledge that even those old books never mentioned hell. I think a lot of horror movies depicting the fires of hell have badly influenced a lot of of people who can't discern fact from fiction.
 
T

Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
This is not only a well thought out post, but it also offers a lot of peace. I notice on these boards that a lot of people come from abusive religious backgrounds. As you mentioned in your post, it can be hard to escape the falseness of religion when you have been raised on it. But, I think it is harder when you have not come from an abusive religious background. I was never a part of an abusive church and my family is pretty tolerant of all things and we don't have any beliefs that I would deem radical. I started questioning Christianity when I started reading literature from other religions and cultures. I remember a long time ago, a professor telling us that Dante's Inferno brought up suicide as a punishment and the Catholic church took that and ran with it. However, as pointed out in your articulate post, no where in the Bible is suicide called a sin. I have always found it odd how the Christian religion originates from Judaism and yet the two religions are so different. I mean, if we can't even agree on the afterlife, then how are we worshipping the same God? How do we support Jewish people while simultaneously declaring that Gentiles know better because we believe in Jesus Christ? The only thing that I can come up with is that the Christian religion was started because of the Jewish people's captivity in Rome, which was the birth of Catholicism. Then, as a History teacher, I know that other religions such as the Anglican Church came about due to changes to the Catholic religion. How can ONE God have so many different religions? The idea of Jesus Christ is such a western religion; you get to commit sins without any real determination to a God or religion and you're still saved and forgiven. Other religions require their followers to commit and live a certain life. I read that the Bible actually mentions other gods because at that time there was a belief that other gods existed but that the Jewish people believed THAT god was the one true God. So, it then looks as any other religion or creation story. I am rambling, but my point is that maybe with some research, most people would be godless.
There were indeed 'many gods' with Yahweh being one among many worshipped in the region.
There are several reasons why it took hold and it's fascinating to learn about. But the main reason it took hold was because it became the official religion of Rome. This is the only reason it spread. If Emperor I forget his name didn't do this (and it was for political reasons), it probably would've remained a sect that could have died out or continued as a minor religion.
To answer your other thought. Yes I believe being godless is best. Having a god is like having a father that never dies and you're forced into the role of a child forever. It takes away your autonomy. I highly recommend searching up and watching some Christopher Hitchens on YouTube.
 
lostautist

lostautist

wandering
Jan 12, 2022
135
I'm not against believing that there may be some form of higher consciousness... that leads into physics and debating whether consciousness is a Fundamental Force of nature, if that information is not destroyed when neurons die and is quantized and somehow retained by the appropriate field, i.e. QFT, something may move beyond. That's a completely different topic though. I grew up learning many of the same reasonings that you've posted here. Excellent write up!

NDEs are a biological process usually interpreted by those who experience them based on their belief structures, at least from what I've looked into. Other events, sleep terrors, hypnagogia, sleep paralysis and various meditative states are also often described based on belief structures as well. They're really interesting to read about, but everyone has different beliefs so you probably shouldn't try to hard to relate to them.

Anyway, thank you for sharing that. It's this very knowledge you provided that has sent me on the journey through science and philosophy ages ago.
 
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Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
I'm not against believing that there may be some form of higher consciousness... that leads into physics and debating whether consciousness is a Fundamental Force of nature, if that information is not destroyed when neurons die and is quantized and somehow retained by the appropriate field, i.e. QFT, something may move beyond. That's a completely different topic though. I grew up learning many of the same reasonings that you've posted here. Excellent write up!

NDEs are a biological process usually interpreted by those who experience them based on their belief structures, at least from what I've looked into. Other events, sleep terrors, hypnagogia, sleep paralysis and various meditative states are also often described based on belief structures as well. They're really interesting to read about, but everyone has different beliefs so you probably shouldn't try to hard to relate to them.

Anyway, thank you for sharing that. It's this very knowledge you provided that has sent me on the journey through science and philosophy ages ago.
Yeah there might be something in the energy concept, that maybe some of our energy goes elsewhere but personally I'm not very convinced. The brain is so complex I think we'll never really figure out how it works completely but just because it's ridiculously complicated doesn't mean it's mystical or magical like some people want us to believe. It's just a ridiculously complex machine to me.
I'm glad you also went on the science and philosophy journey. It was really amazing to me how easy the religion and it's beliefs and arguments fall apart if you just start asking some basic questions!
 
lostautist

lostautist

wandering
Jan 12, 2022
135
Yeah there might be something in the energy concept, that maybe some of our energy goes elsewhere but personally I'm not very convinced. The brain is so complex I think we'll never really figure out how it works completely but just because it's ridiculously complicated doesn't mean it's mystical or magical like some people want us to believe. It's just a ridiculously complex machine to me.

Medicine believes that brain activity and consciousness only exist at the biological level, neurons communicating through synapses through electrochemical signals. etc, and ends there. Some physicists believe that quantum mechanics are needed to explain coherence of consciousness on a larger sense and exists along side the biological processes. There is proof that some senses are both biological and quantum in nature. If this is indeed true, some of the information may also be quantum in nature and when biological death occurs, some of that information could continue to exist at the quantum level.

Its very complex and I'm not really informed enough to even convey much more. On the Dunning-Kruger effect I know enough to know that I know almost nothing except to describe what I have above. Sir Rodger Penrose, Steven Hawkings mentor, is a big proponent of Quantum Consciousness and has given a number of lectures on the topic. I find stuff like this fascinating.


I'm glad you also went on the science and philosophy journey. It was really amazing to me how easy the religion and it's beliefs and arguments fall apart if you just start asking some basic questions!

I'm curious about reality. Many turn to religion to explain it. I don't believe in organized religion... your whole initial post explains why. Theoretical physics and Scientific Method is philosophy. In many circumstances there are no facts and It's as close to truth as one can get.
 
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ColorlessTrees

ColorlessTrees

Member
Jan 4, 2022
16
Very nice post. You’ve described my thoughts exactly regarding “hell”, or eternal damnation.

The common images of heaven and hell seem extreme, almost comical—it’s black and white. The idea of these afterlifes lack nuance in a world that’s so complex and enigmatic; I find it hard to believe.
 
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Ta555

Wizard
Aug 31, 2021
664
Very nice post. You’ve described my thoughts exactly regarding “hell”, or eternal damnation.

The common images of heaven and hell seem extreme, almost comical—it’s black and white. The idea of these afterlifes lack nuance in a world that’s so complex and enigmatic; I find it hard to believe.
Thanks! Yep it's basically so extreme to keep people in line. Especially people throughout history before modern policing and surveillance. It's a pretty neat trick. Makes people afraid and police themselves. Also helps when you're threatened with abandonment or torture if you start questioning. The whole thing is like a dictatorship.
Have you heard that joke:
Jesus: knock knock
You: who's there?
Jesus: it's me Jesus. Let me in.
You: uh...why?
Jesus: so I can save you
You: from what?
Jesus: from what my dad will do to you if you don't let me in.

Yeah...basically Christianity in a nutshell.