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xcenteno

Member
Jun 2, 2022
6
What is the Noble Truth of Suffering? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering: in short the five categories affected by clinging are suffering. Source.
 
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,308
Yes, it boils down to dissatisfaction with present situations, and unhappiness with change. There is no way out. Except for the rest of the teaching, which is all about the way out.
 
O

obafgkm

Student
Jun 3, 2022
130
Does the readiness to accept suffering and live a minimal life, actually make the world worse and increase suffering? If people dislike their present lives they should fight back, or quit. If slaves all die the masters will have to spin off their own relatives and associates to play the slave roles. They will probably treat them better.
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,262
I agree woth the buddhists on the first noble truth, but the agreement ends there. That's the only overlap the buddhists have with pessimists.
Does this mean you understand pessimism as not agreeing with being a moral agent that tries not to harm or subjugate others?
 
Callie Arcale

Callie Arcale

It’s a tale told by an idiot signifying nothing
Feb 10, 2021
673
If we stop at the first noble truth we miss the whole point Buddha was trying to make.

Yes, there is suffering (dukkha). But suffering ceases. There is a path that leads to suffering, and a path that leads to the cessation of suffering.

The first noble truth means nothing without the other three noble truths. Together the four noble truths are the foundation of Dharma.
 
cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
68
Yes, there is suffering (dukkha). But suffering ceases. There is a path that leads to suffering, and a path that leads to the cessation of suffering
I don't think it's possible to escape suffering, except through death. In Zen Buddhism- which I see as a more refined version of buddhism- the goal is to make suffering 2-dimensiol (again) instead of 3-dimensional. In other words when you are experiencing pain you are not supposed to feel an extra layer of pain for being in pain, you just feel the pain momemt for moment like an animal would.
 
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,308
Pain and suffering are not the same thing.

PS. best username ever!
 
cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
68
Pain and suffering are not the same thing.

PS. best username ever!
How do they differ in the context of buddhism? I used suffering as merely a broader term for all types of painful sensations, including psychological ones like anxiety, which may feel very different from conventional pain.
 
Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,308
According to those who have been through the process, physical pain is still experienced, but is devoid of actual suffering without the resistance, judgements, stories and thoughts about it.
 
cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
68
According to those who have been through the process, physical pain is still experienced, but is devoid of actual suffering without the resistance, judgements, stories and thoughts about it.
Aren't you setting yourself up for failure though, by  trying to escape suffering?
 
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Shivali

Shivali

Student
Jun 9, 2022
121
We all imagine ourself to be a person. But that is the Illusion, a dream, Maya. When the person falls away there can be suffering but no sufferer anymore. 217996602 4162173340527581 4530207013682662047 n
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,308
When the person falls away there can be suffering but no sufferer anymore.
That is correct. The important part is that undergoing the awakening process means a lasting shift in identity from person to presence. An intellectual understanding won't achieve this.

Aren't you setting yourself up for failure though, by  trying to escape suffering?
Good question.

For those who have gone through the awakening process to an adequate degree, their message is that there is a permanent way out of suffering. From that perspective, the world is not a problem, our life situations are not a problem, and physical pain is not a problem. The false is seen as false, so there's no entity to resisted/fight and hence no suffering.

As for the process (and to directly address the question), there is a middle pathway that must be found. The mentality "I am not the person, therefore I do not need to do anything" will limit progress towards liberation, but the attitude "I am a person who must take action to improve my life" is also perpetuating the false by investing in an entity with problems and solutions. Somehow there's a sweet spot of surrendering to the present moment but also orienting towards the methods that deepen one's sense of presence. I hope this makes some sense.
 
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cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
68
That is correct. The important part is that undergoing the awakening process means a lasting shift in identity from person to presence. An intellectual understanding won't achieve this.


Good question.

For those who have gone through the awakening process to an adequate degree, their message is that there is a permanent way out of suffering. From that perspective, the world is not a problem, our life situations are not a problem, and physical pain is not a problem. The false is seen as false, so there's no entity to resisted/fight and hence no suffering.

As for the process (and to directly address the question), there is a middle pathway that must be found. The mentality "I am not the person, therefore I do not need to do anything" will limit progress towards liberation, but the attitude "I am a person who must take action to improve my life" is also perpetuating the false by investing in an entity with problems and solutions. Somehow there's a sweet spot of surrendering to the present moment but also orienting towards the methods that deepen one's sense of presence. I hope this makes some sense.
Yes, I get what you're saying. There seems to be a disagreemt among buddhists about wether or not humans can achieve a higher state of liberation than animals. Where do you stand on this issue?
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,308
Yes, I get what you're saying. There seems to be a disagreemt among buddhists about wether or not humans can achieve a higher state of liberation than animals. Where do you stand on this issue?
In the Advaita Vedanta world, the only two beings who were officially declared as fully liberated by Ramana Maharshi were his mother and Lakshmi the cow. So in this context, being human or animal makes no difference... perhaps because humans are animals. We share 90% of our DNA with cats. :)

The best advice I can give is to focus on the perspective of fully realised beings. Scholars will get lost in debates which are of no real value. The perspective of the sages is along the lines of "you are already in the highest state, you just can't feel it because you are identified with your mind." This message needs to be understood as an invitation to undergo a transformation in identity.

Hence the oneness doesn't need to be achieved, but we merely need to see the falseness of the human identity for what it is. That's ultimately what this whole game is about.
 
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cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
68
Hence the oneness doesn't need to be achieved, but we merely need to see the falseness of the human identity for what it is. That's ultimately what this whole game is about.
Thats what I was getting at with my question. The idea of the self is an abstraction that seperates us from the "Oneness", the "Dao", or whichever term you prefer. Animals are incapable of abstract thinking and therefore already in a liberated state by default.
 
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Shivali

Shivali

Student
Jun 9, 2022
121
There is no YOU that could improve or achieve enlightement. There are no animals, no world, no universe. Thats happening 121159323 2752270561723666 2114488244949619195 n all within the dream. In fact there is nothing more real than nothing. So Ariane Reflects, Jim Newmann, Tim Cliss and other nonduality speakers (on youtube). I really love listening their message 🙂
 
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cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
68
There is no YOU that could improve or achieve enlightement. There are no animals, no world, no universe. Thats happening View attachment 95101 all within the dream. In fact there is nothing more real than nothing. So Ariane Reflects, Jim Newmann, Tim Cliss and other nonduality speakers (on youtube). I really love listening their message 🙂
"We are such stuff
As dreams are made of, and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep" -Shakespeare
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
1,308
Animals are incapable of abstract thinking and therefore already in a liberated state by default.
In his book A New Earth, Eckhart Tolle argues that thinking is an evolutionary stage. Just as human ancestors (monkeys, early mammals, fish, etc.) were incapable of thought, the next stage of evolution is progressing beyond the identification with thought. While animals are often venerated for the simple beauty of their integrity and their limited egos, they are rarely capable of the most advanced state of Buddhahood.

And yes, everything you see or think is merely an appearance in front of you. To truly get this is a shortcut.

Key takeaway: no effort is needed to be the Self, but practical effort is generally needed to discard the illusion in your experience. The conditioned mind is a master seductress striving to maintain the ego. The ego death process tends to involve learning to pass through a barrier of intense fear without resistance; this is a common theme in awakening reports.
 
GentleJerk

GentleJerk

Carrot juice aficionado.
Dec 14, 2021
1,341
Buddhas and bodhisattvas: Samsaric existence is cyclic, and contingent upon the accumulation of karma and attachment throughout countless lifetimes...

Like 90% of SS: I want to die lol, YOLO.
 
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