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noname223

Visionary
Aug 18, 2020
2,515
I had this thought when I meet my family. Especially when my grandmother is around. I think her life-quality would be way worse if she had no children. Her husband is already dead. I think the loneliness can be pretty torturous when you are old. This is one reason why I hope I die young. The solitude in homes of aged is sometimes heartbreaking. During covid many people died in complete loneliness without saying goodbye to their loved ones. But it must even hurt more if you have no loved ones.

Most children feel obliged to care for their old parents. It is sometimes quite hypocritical. Sometimes they only want to inherit their money.
It is quite a selfish reason but I think having children when you are very old can kind of comfort you. You think your life had a meaning because now your relatives live on. My grandma told me some months ago I shall remember her when she dies. She might don't have much time to live anymore.

Though I think this reason for pro-creating is kind of selfish. I think in my family noone is self-aware or reflective enough to understand why pro-creating might be a bad idea if you are totally fucked. Especially my other grandma the bipolar one should have never pro-created. But she is already dead for a long time ago. I protect my other grandma from my suicidal thoughts. She also did not stop the child abuse. But she is old and I don't want to hurt her. She could die soon and I don't want an argument to be our last conversation.

I think it can feel good to pro-create. Because our brain and hormones are programmed to pursue pro-creation. It can be a life-changing experience to hold your own baby in your arms. But it did not stop my mom from abusing her children. I think many people see it as the meaning of life to pro-create. Many people have the wish: As long as my children have it better than me I am okay to experience my whole fucked up life and all the suffering.

Though most people don't get that this promise is almost impossible to give. I think pro-creating can be kind of playing russian roulette. There are so many painful conditions, diseases and so much more. So much violence and abuse. Though I think it depends on the life circumstances. Some children have better preconditions than others. But I think most children in this world are born under horrible circumstances.

The advantage of pro-creating is: yourself can feel better. Some/Most children are even glad that they are born. But for me playing russian roulette always feels irresponsible.

Personally I absolutely don't want to pro-create. I fear loneliness. I think there probably will be a dichotomy between my friends. The ones who pro-create and the ones who don't. I think it can shape your worldview. Parenthood can demand a lot of energy. Yeah I think my friends will have way less time. I am kind of scared about that. I wish my friends would not pro-create. But I have stopped to tell them about antinatalism. They should make a decision which feels good for them and not for me. Some people regret they don't have pro-created when they are old.

What do you think are good arguments for pro-creation? Maybe you can find some which don't sound as selfish as mine?
 
Doombox

Doombox

Who knows, who cares
Apr 7, 2022
290
I think the idea of having kids so you are assured of care in your old age is pretty old school. I got myself neutered a long time ago to make sure I never fucked up a kid the way I'd been fucked up. Since I was the only possibility for extending the family tree, it gave me pleasure to prune the branch. That particular line ends here.
 
whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,251
Reproduction is a gamble, an investment. It can be a net loss or a net gain. Your children can be physically and mentally healthy, which will give you company, morale boosts, financial support, other benefits, or they can be fuckups and unlucky, which will be a burden that will rest also on your shoulders unless you are so heartless to cut them off.

In normal circumstances having children should benefit the parents in the long run. It is a selfish, thoughtless, whimsical act through which human animals feel fulfilled at a deep, instinctive level, having achieved the overt objective of their existence.
 
BrokenJesus

BrokenJesus

New Member
Jul 25, 2022
4
Sorry if this is all too personal, but this topic means a lot to me, so I gotta be honest here: the prospect of having children is probably the only thing that gives me hope and keeps me going right now. And the fear that I might not succeed, or that I could be wrong about how I feel and that in the end it wouldn't matter if I do succeed, is the main thing putting me down.

Call me selfish, but to create new life is just plain godly, and I can't even think of anything I could do in this world that could compare. There's something intrinsically meaningful and fulfilling about it, that dispenses logical justification, the same way the joys of sex, having a good meal, reading a good book, spending time with a friend, punching something really hard, puking after being sick for a while or waking up after fainting all dispenses justification. I cried enough imagining my kids smiling to me, imagining how they would look like, how I would name them and talking about it all with my ex, to know there's nothing that matters as much. And even now, when I couldn't feel further from my dream, I still pity those who haven't dreamt it.

The way my mother talked about my birth or about having me as her son always felt kinda silly, but now I think I finally undestand. I envy her, even knowing I'm not someone to be proud of, because I know that for her I embody the dream that I now dream too, and because now I do recognize that she loves me, the same way I already love unconditionally the children I might never have. That's probably the best thing about having children: the world is full of useless, disgusting and fucked up people, true, I'm one of them, but my hypothetical children would be people I believe I could love despite all of this, despite all their failures and despite how much they disappoint me. And there's a lot of peace to be found in knowing that.

I always wanted to create something that would last before my own death and that would prove I'm not a total failure; I always wanted to feel deeply connected to someone else; I always wanted to find someone I could forgive for any mistake; I always searched for something that would change my life forever, because I'm tired of running in circles; To have my own family would solve all that. To be fair, at this point it is about this, family, not just about the breeding stuff. To breed and to never met the kid wouldn't be enough, even if I considered doing it once. To marry but to never have children of my own blood wouldn't be enough too.

I realize that I may sound like a pro-lifer, but come on, if life wasn't so wonderful, then what would I die for? What could I mourn enough to make me wish my own death? ,
 
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DynamicDepression

DynamicDepression

Failed Writer
Mar 28, 2022
298
Sorry if this is all too personal, but this topic means a lot to me, so I gotta be honest here: the prospect of having children is probably the only thing that gives me hope and keeps me going right now. And the fear that I might not succeed, or that I could be wrong about how I feel and that in the end it wouldn't matter if I do succeed, is the main thing putting me down.

Call me selfish, but to create new life is just plain godly, and I can't even think of anything I could do in this world that could compare. There's something intrinsically meaningful and fulfilling about it, that dispenses logical justification, the same way the joys of sex, having a good meal, reading a good book, spending time with a friend, punching something really hard, puking after being sick for a while or waking up after fainting all dispenses justification. I cried enough imagining my kids smiling to me, imagining how they would look like, how I would name them and talking about it all with my ex, to know there's nothing that matters as much. And even now, when I couldn't feel further from my dream, I still pity those who haven't dreamt it.

The way my mother talked about my birth or about having me as her son always felt kinda silly, but now I think I finally undestand. I envy her, even knowing I'm not someone to be proud of, because I know that for her I embody the dream that I now dream too, and because now I do recognize that she loves me, the same way I already love unconditionally the children I might never have. That's probably the best thing about having children: the world is full of useless, disgusting and fucked up people, true, I'm one of them, but my hypothetical children would be people I believe I could love despite all of this, despite all their failures and despite how much they disappoint me. And there's a lot of peace to be found in knowing that.

I always wanted to create something that would last before my own death and that would prove I'm not a total failure; I always wanted to feel deeply connected to someone else; I always wanted to find someone I could forgive for any mistake; I always searched for something that would change my life forever, because I'm tired of running in circles; To have my own family would solve all that. To be fair, at this point it is about this, family, not just about the breeding stuff. To breed and to never met the kid wouldn't be enough, even if I considered doing it once. To marry but to never have children of my own blood wouldn't be enough too.

I realize that I may sound like a pro-lifer, but come on, if life wasn't so wonderful, then what would I die for? What could I mourn enough to make me wish my own death? ,
I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but gambling with an innocent person's life to fulfill your own desires is incredibly selfish and cruel. If you want to be a parent, there are millions of orphans in need of a loving home.
 
O

outatime_85

Experienced
May 17, 2022
299
I do not think I could bring myself to do such a thing with my current state of mind.

On top of that, I am not the smartest one based on my family makeup, so I don't think it would be wise if my genes moved forward.

Also, there are the effects of postpartum depression on one's health.

That said, I'm not sure I'd want to put someone's mental health at risk just to hear the pitter-patter of tiny feet around the house.

In the end, I think there are too many variables for me to risk it.
 
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suicidalwillreturn

Member
Aug 2, 2022
41
  • For mankind to continue
  • Gives higher probability of a human existing that would solve some if not all of life's problems.
That's all the objective reasons I can think without going into much common things (company, religious reasons, retirement investment, normal flow of life) which with my current mindset don't subscribe to. I already know that there is a chance I will be a failure as a parent and I'm afraid that my child would just have a worse life than I had since I didn't even learn how to fix myself first.
 
Message In A Bottle

Message In A Bottle

Student
Apr 1, 2022
155
If one has superior genes and the integrity to raise one then I suppose that would be a good enough reason - but most do not.

But really, I think people are just better off not having them right now. The world will only get worse from here on out and you’d be doing them a favor by not bringing them here at all.
 
WhatPowerIs

WhatPowerIs

Experienced
Jun 19, 2022
233
If one has superior genes and the integrity to raise one then I suppose that would be a good enough reason - but most do not.

But really, I think people are just better off not having them right now. The world will only get worse from here on out and you’d be doing them a favor by not bringing them here at all.
Superior genes?
 
WhatPowerIs

WhatPowerIs

Experienced
Jun 19, 2022
233
Like, no history of mental health issues or any physical incapabilities that could be passed on and effect their quality of life.

Bringing life in the world is risky in itself let alone having those odds stacked against you. I only wish my parents would’ve considered that.
Oh okay, yeah I guess. Good genes really. When you said superior it sounded like something a eugenicist would say :pfff:
Life is fragile.
 
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cat_supremacist

cat_supremacist

Who goes there?
Jul 7, 2022
69
Oh okay, yeah I guess. Good genes really. When you said superior it sounded like something a eugenicist would say :pfff:
Life is fragile.
Sugercoat it all you want, there clearly are biologically superior and inferior genes. Humans wouldn't be at the top of the food chain, if bad genes weren't sorted out through natural selection. The technological revolution has allowed for weak, illness-carrying genes to prosper, who'se hosts, under natural conditions, would die in infancy or early childhood.

I'm in favor of eugenics, mainly because everyone forcefully thrown into this battlefield should atleast receive semi-fair starting conditions. If you are taking a humanistic approach to this issue, why is someone's 'right' to reproduice more important than another's 'right' to a healthy body?

There are obviously good arguments against eugenics too, but don't give me any of this "how dare you!?!" bullshit please.
 
FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Wish that I was gone.
Sep 24, 2020
13,305
There isn’t really any good arguments for procreation. All life is completely unnecessary, and with life comes the unlimited potential to suffer. We were all perfectly fine not existing until we were forced to live. I think that if anyone thinks that procreation is a good idea, then they are selfish, they are only thinking about what is best for themselves rather than the human they would bring into this world. To me non existence is always preferable to life, especially as the world that we live in is extremely unfair.
 
BrokenJesus

BrokenJesus

New Member
Jul 25, 2022
4
Like, no history of mental health issues or any physical incapabilities that could be passed on and effect their quality of life.

Bringing life in the world is risky in itself let alone having those odds stacked against you. I only wish my parents would’ve considered that.
That's literally something an eugenicist would say.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,251
I didn’t know what a Eugenicist was until someone brought it up.
Eugenics has always been a great idea and has already proven it's worth with dogs, cattle or vegetables. In reality, it's not the eugenics proposer that's immoral, but those that let the genetically doomed breed (and create suffering).
 
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NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

Dinosaur
Jun 17, 2018
1,716
They can be used for company (The only friends that will never betray you)
and financial support like @whatevs said

It's just economics
you're making babies for the same reason you'd buy a car
because they have a function that benefits you

It's similar to rape
you satisfy a need without asking the person you're raping
if they're fine with being raped
But it's stil a win win somehow (for you and them)

The kid can be born/become disabled, with autism, social anxiety, maybe ugly without any girl/man wanting him/her, be bullied in school
become a loser without a job or a wage slave

all of that because of you

But if they ask you why you made them, or why you're abusing them (if you're a bad parent), you can always yell at them
that they should get on their knees and suck your dick/lick your vagina
because you're feeding them and giving them a place to live in
(you know the basic necessities that you need to not die)
it always works
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,251
They can be used for company (The only friends that will never betray you)
and financial support like @whatevs said

It's just economics
you're making babies for the same reason you'd buy a car
because they have a function that benefits you

It's similar to rape
you satisfy a need without asking the person you're raping
if they're fine with being raped
But it's stil a win win somehow (for you and them)

The kid can be born/become disabled, with autism, social anxiety, maybe ugly without any girl/man wanting him/her, be bullied in school
become a loser without a job or a wage slave

all of that because of you

But if they ask you why you made them, or why you're abusing them (if you're a bad parent), you can always yell at them
that they should get on their knees and suck your dick/lick your vagina
because you're feeding them and giving them a place to live in
(you know the basic necessities that you need to not die)
it always works
Ah yes, the win win nature of rape and telling your kids to suck your dick. All so familiar, all so relatable.
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

Dinosaur
Jun 17, 2018
1,716
Can you elaborate?
yes your majesty our moderator
it means that a child can't consent to being born, brcause he doesn't exist, ot course,
which also means that a breeder
would rape an animal, since
animals can't consent,
and them not having the ability to consent means that they've consented,
according to the breeder's logic.
I'm being a hell of a philosopher here
 
NoLifeNoPain

NoLifeNoPain

Dinosaur
Jun 17, 2018
1,716
Eugenics makes total sense
Weak people (Like me) shouldn't exist
I wouldn't make a child if I knew he was
gonna be physically weak and stupid (like me)

Killijg weak people that are already alive is Bad

but what makes even more sense
is for evedyone, weak or strong to die
everyone should just die

Life is pointless and hard for everyone, weak or strong
 
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Efilismislife

Efilismislife

Psychopath family tortured me
May 25, 2021
535
So basically he wrote in a confusing way that made it look like justifying rape but he wasn't.
Isnt it called sarcastic?

i get his point though

its somewhat ironically funny , reality can be ridiculous
 
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DynamicDepression

DynamicDepression

Failed Writer
Mar 28, 2022
298
Eugenics has always been a great idea and has already proven it's worth with dogs, cattle or vegetables. In reality, it's not the eugenics proposer that's immoral, but those that let the genetically doomed breed (and create suffering).
I only have two issues with eugenics:

Firstly, because of all the [demographic] supremacists out there, any eugenics program is likely to turn into another case of outbreeding whatever other demographic(s) you believe to be inferior, completely ignoring the health and life quality of the children forced into existence in favor of unsubstantiated beliefs in racial superiority. Then there is the pro-disability crowd who think that being disabled is a "gift" or a "blessing" that should be shared by other people. I myself am disabled and would not wish such an existence on anyone. While accepting and helping disabled people is very important for any civilized society, these people fail to understand the difference between helping disabled people already here and creating more disabled people. There have even been cases of deaf parents having actively tried for a deaf child to continue "deaf culture" or parents of children with genetic diseases proclaiming said diseases to be a "gift". This is absolutely cruel and happens already with pugs. I find it naive to believe that large-scale selective breeding of "cute deformed children" for social media likes would not occur.

Secondly, it doesn't go to the root of the issue and is merely applying a bandaid on the fundamentally bad idea that is birth. There are simply no good reasons for procreating and forcing a child to suffer and die in the end. To expand on my analogy, it's like cutting someone with a knife and then applying a bandaid on the wound. Yes, the bandaid might help a little but it was completely unnecessary to cut the person in the first place. It's an exercise in futility and a multiplier for suffering.

In short, while eugenics works great in theory, in practice humans are too moronic to use it appropriately and are more likely to cause further suffering with it than what we're doing now.
 
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