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K

killmepls

Member
Aug 19, 2018
85
Who wants to start new country that actually has freedom and human rights. The currency will be crypto. All drugs will be legal as well as suicide. Of course this is unrealistic as we would promptly be invaded by the U.S (even outside the U.S) but we can dream
 
K

KCN

El revisionismo en castillano
Jul 16, 2018
230
A techno-socialist utopia with no money, automation, free access to all goods, effective equality, virtual immortality as a godlike figure for those who wish to be so and freedom guaranteed as long as you respect other people's integrity and physical safety.
 
joydivision

joydivision

Member
Aug 26, 2018
30
A techno-socialist utopia with no money, automation, free access to all goods, effective equality, virtual immortality as a godlike figure for those who wish to be so and freedom guaranteed as long as you respect other people's integrity and physical safety.
❤❤❤❤❤❤
 
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C

creatureoflight

Mage
Jul 27, 2018
531
count me in as long as it involes the death of capitalism #tzm

What other alternative is there? Communism clearly doesn't work.
I live in a country with a very strong left wing and the truth these people don't want to accept is that people must have some sort of an incentive to work and to produce something to make their lives better. Capitalism gives them this incentive and that is clearly the reason why countries like North Korea don't have anything of their own and mass hunger because the people there have no real reason to be productive as they know they will never earn much. So many countries around the world have collapsed because of this faultly idealogy. Capitalism is brutal and has many faults but it is the only realistic thing we could think of this far.
 
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joydivision

joydivision

Member
Aug 26, 2018
30
What other alternative is there? Communism clearly doesn't work
Not that I want to get into a long political debate because im too tired for that shit but capitalism has created far more misery, suffering, destruction, and killed far more than so called " communism" ever has. And there are more alternatives once you put a little thought and creativty into it rather than resorting to the capitalism/communism dichotomy.
 
C

creatureoflight

Mage
Jul 27, 2018
531
Not that I want to get into a long political debate because im too tired for that shit but capitalism has created far more misery, suffering, destruction, and killed far more than so called " communism" ever has. And there are more alternatives once you put a little thought and creativty into it rather than resorting to the capitalism/communism dichotomy.

Communism doesn't work. My parents grew up in the Soviet countries and it was an absolutely terrible place. And you can't compare suffering-there are many aspects to it. Capitalism has created a lot of misery for sure but also gave science and humans the way forward because there is a lot of money to be made if you discover life saving drugs or find out something new. There are good reasons why there are only a few communist countries left (with the exception of China, whose economy is capitalist) and they are really shitty to be in. I'm not saying capitalism is fair at all or morally good, but it works much better than communism ever will.
 
joydivision

joydivision

Member
Aug 26, 2018
30
Communism doesn't work. My parents grew up in the Soviet countries and it was an absolutely terrible place. And you can't compare suffering-there are many aspects to it. Capitalism has created a lot of misery for sure but also gave science and humans the way forward because there is a lot of money to be made if you discover life saving drugs or find out something new. There are good reasons why there are only a few communist countries left and they are really shitty to be in. I'm not saying capitalism is fair at all or morally good, but it works much better than communism ever will.
I dont understand. So before captialsm there was no science? Human inguinity, innovation has long existed before the dawn if capitalism. And if you want to get technical there never has been actual communism. But even i do grant you that, i could take a handful of African countries that are a million times worse that the USSR ever was , just for starters. Uggh im being dragged into a political debate....goodnight:)
 
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creatureoflight

Mage
Jul 27, 2018
531
Of course there was human innovation before that but only in the 20th century when capitalism really got a foothold did science have a Golden Age in science because now we are finding things out every day and that wasn't possible earlier. This is attributable to capitalism because it paved the way for mass industrialization and gave a big incentive to produce things.
About the African countries-yeah, some of them are really horrible but for example the Soviet concentration camps and the North Korean ones make the Nazi ones seem downright compassionate.
Anyway, this got way off topic.
 
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joydivision

joydivision

Member
Aug 26, 2018
30
Ive had this debate 1000 times and it never changes. Oh and the golden age of capitalism and science you speak of was actually grounded in a communist principle - universal education. The boom you speak of was sparked by ww2 vets receiving free education after returning from war.


And the gulags and prison camps are largely distorted western propaganda , especially the figures often quoted. But ipl even grant you them for now if you can honestly tell me they are worse than the rape camps in the Congo? Oh and Btw Nazi Gernany was capitalist - fascism.
 
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creatureoflight

Mage
Jul 27, 2018
531
Ive had this debate 1000 times and it never changes. Oh and the golden age of capitalism and science you speak of was actually grounded in a communist principle - universal education. The boom you speak of was sparked by ww2 vets receiving free education after returning from war.


And the gulags and prison camps are largely distorted western propaganda , especially the figures often quoted. But ipl even grant you them for now if you can honestly tell me they are worse than the rape camps in the Congo? Oh and Btw Nazi Gernany was capitalist - fascism.

I realize that Nazi Germany was not communist, I merely used it as a comparison for the Soviet camps. I wanted to pinpoint with these examples that communism has caused much suffering as well because of its wrong implementation. If people have no incentive to produce anything, the only way to get them to do it is by brute force as is the case in North Korea and was in the USSR. But force is not as effective as people wanting to do it out of their own incentive.
How can the boom I speak of be triggered by WW2 vets getting free education? The golden age was well under way before WW2, there were so many exciting discoveries being made before that like general anesthesia (which you can sell for big bucks.)
Of course rape camps in the Congo are terrible and I don't know if they are more terrible than gulags or not. But these countries are in a state of war and aren't focused on economic development right now. Isn't the Congo the worse rated country in the world in terms of its economic development?
The problem is that most left wing people in my country don't realize that you can't just endlessly increase taxes for the middle and upper classes to distribute their earnings to the poor because people don't take kindly to the government cutting 40-50% of their paycheck to give it to the poor, the refugees etc. Also, the whole goals of the left party where I live are unrealistic and also not manageable in terms of financing them because then no one will work. Some people here want an unconditional basic income of 1000 Euro. Honestly, then no one would clean the street, work in retail or work in jobs such as being a waitress.
 
A

Asthenia

Member
Aug 6, 2018
47
A techno-socialist utopia with no money, automation, free access to all goods, effective equality, virtual immortality as a godlike figure for those who wish to be so and freedom guaranteed as long as you respect other people's integrity and physical safety.

I love this. I'm also for abolishing all boundaries between countries
 
Sayo

Sayo

Not 2B
Aug 22, 2018
520
the dprk was fairly productive before mass sanctions and famine actually

I also think the majority of things people have are bizarrely unnecessary. every time I go shopping never mind look around my house I am overwhelmed by the pathos there is in a mountain of environment-killing disposable junk nobody really cares for that was produced indifferently to meet a quota. tons never gets bought and ends up as landfill or in the sea, or has little real utility but exists as the worst quality mind clutter. now food and healthcare are necessary and capitalist countries intentionally deprive nations that focus on them of freedom to pursue those.

a lot of social problems are economic in origin or symptoms of it or support it like rampant individualism.

my ancestors prolly would have lived in relative harmony with the only good thing around me (the environment) for a hundred thousand more years than they did, the last dozens of millennia were erased by mindless expansion and brutal colonisation.

I'm not an anarchoprimitivist but I think a lot of the metrics by which capitalism is judged a success are backwards. communist countries industrialise at least for worthwhile reasons.

brutal but the best thing yet is untrue especially if you don’t merely believe in might makes right or whatever and could be applied to other systems if you cared to

i see fewer communists in seemingly intuitive places like lthis nd my theory for why is a combination of reddit intake and that marxism when studied seriously offers heuristic challenges to existentialism

anyway micronations are typically disregarded by the country considering itself to have sovereignty over it and typically recognised as such, except when it comes to taxes

but yeah countries that affect markets or hegemony get invaded. Australia is still finishing colonisation. I live in an ethnostate and am descended from people that have spent the last couple of generations being traumatised over and over by state interference of course I wanna die lmao

also capitalism did not give science nor technology and is currently stifling it in many ways .

sorry about the grammar and maniacal non linearity my phone keyboard interacts oddly with the postbox on mobile and it jumps a lot
 
Tomasnil

Tomasnil

Mage
Apr 24, 2018
519
Who wants to start new country that actually has freedom and human rights. The currency will be crypto. All drugs will be legal as well as suicide. Of course this is unrealistic as we would promptly be invaded by the U.S (even outside the U.S) but we can dream
Naaa just get your self a place with absolutly not natrual resourses like OIL or food then get a bunch of nukes.
Works for that kim dim jong king kong in north korea.
U.S is just a bully only pick on countrys they know cant fight back and have something they need
 
L

LastLeg

Soon to Die
Sep 4, 2018
14
Who wants to start new country that actually has freedom and human rights. The currency will be crypto. All drugs will be legal as well as suicide. Of course this is unrealistic as we would promptly be invaded by the U.S (even outside the U.S) but we can dream
Count me in
 
joydivision

joydivision

Member
Aug 26, 2018
30
the dprk was fairly productive before mass sanctions and famine actually

I also think the majority of things people have are bizarrely unnecessary. every time I go shopping never mind look around my house I am overwhelmed by the pathos there is in a mountain of environment-killing disposable junk nobody really cares for that was produced indifferently to meet a quota. tons never gets bought and ends up as landfill or in the sea, or has little real utility but exists as the worst quality mind clutter. now food and healthcare are necessary and capitalist countries intentionally deprive nations that focus on them of freedom to pursue those.

a lot of social problems are economic in origin or symptoms of it or support it like rampant individualism.

my ancestors prolly would have lived in relative harmony with the only good thing around me (the environment) for a hundred thousand more years than they did, the last dozens of millennia were erased by mindless expansion and brutal colonisation.

I'm not an anarchoprimitivist but I think a lot of the metrics by which capitalism is judged a success are backwards. communist countries industrialise at least for worthwhile reasons.

brutal but the best thing yet is untrue especially if you don’t merely believe in might makes right or whatever and could be applied to other systems if you cared to

i see fewer communists in seemingly intuitive places like lthis nd my theory for why is a combination of reddit intake and that marxism when studied seriously offers heuristic challenges to existentialism

anyway micronations are typically disregarded by the country considering itself to have sovereignty over it and typically recognised as such, except when it comes to taxes

but yeah countries that affect markets or hegemony get invaded. Australia is still finishing colonisation. I live in an ethnostate and am descended from people that have spent the last couple of generations being traumatised over and over by state interference of course I wanna die lmao

also capitalism did not give science nor technology and is currently stifling it in many ways .

sorry about the grammar and maniacal non linearity my phone keyboard interacts oddly with the postbox on mobile and it jumps a lot


No offense to creature of light but she hasn't put enough thought into her enlargement and I had this debate a thousand times on FB so I am not coming here to do the same. I am just going to agree with you Sayo because this is exactly where people should go when discussing this topic, regardless of your ideology. I am speaking about you bringing up productivity - EXACTLY. "Communism", as practiced was much more productive than capitalism has even been in the examples (N Korea and USSR) used by creature of light . Any non-biased economist can tell that both the USSR and N Korea were immensely productive post war years. What they actually accomplished was impressive given that both countries were completely destroyed by war. They basically had to start all over again. Meanwhile the US and other capitalist nations used as "model of capitalism were mostly untouched by war. Those that were, had huge influxes of capital via the Marshall plan. And this isn't even getting to how slavery and imperialism fulled much of what creature of light calls the "golden age of capitalism" (which is actually historically much later than you are defining it) . And that's just the start....
 
RM5998

RM5998

Sack of Meat
Sep 3, 2018
2,206
the dprk was fairly productive before mass sanctions and famine actually

I also think the majority of things people have are bizarrely unnecessary. every time I go shopping never mind look around my house I am overwhelmed by the pathos there is in a mountain of environment-killing disposable junk nobody really cares for that was produced indifferently to meet a quota. tons never gets bought and ends up as landfill or in the sea, or has little real utility but exists as the worst quality mind clutter. now food and healthcare are necessary and capitalist countries intentionally deprive nations that focus on them of freedom to pursue those.

a lot of social problems are economic in origin or symptoms of it or support it like rampant individualism.

my ancestors prolly would have lived in relative harmony with the only good thing around me (the environment) for a hundred thousand more years than they did, the last dozens of millennia were erased by mindless expansion and brutal colonisation.

I'm not an anarchoprimitivist but I think a lot of the metrics by which capitalism is judged a success are backwards. communist countries industrialise at least for worthwhile reasons.

brutal but the best thing yet is untrue especially if you don’t merely believe in might makes right or whatever and could be applied to other systems if you cared to

i see fewer communists in seemingly intuitive places like lthis nd my theory for why is a combination of reddit intake and that marxism when studied seriously offers heuristic challenges to existentialism

anyway micronations are typically disregarded by the country considering itself to have sovereignty over it and typically recognised as such, except when it comes to taxes

but yeah countries that affect markets or hegemony get invaded. Australia is still finishing colonisation. I live in an ethnostate and am descended from people that have spent the last couple of generations being traumatised over and over by state interference of course I wanna die lmao

also capitalism did not give science nor technology and is currently stifling it in many ways .

sorry about the grammar and maniacal non linearity my phone keyboard interacts oddly with the postbox on mobile and it jumps a lot

A lot of the problems with some capitalist societies (specifically, the ones we live in) have to do with the instrumental rationality practiced by them that reduces humans living in the society to inputs for the machine of capitalism to produce a commodified version of pleasure that can be generated so that people agree to become a part of the machine. To some extent, this might be part of the reason why a lot of us are here on this site - because the commodity that society offers does not have value for us, we are inclined to reject it wholesale.
 
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Tomasnil

Tomasnil

Mage
Apr 24, 2018
519
A lot of the problems with capitalist societies have to do with the instrumental rationality practiced by them that reduces humans living in the society to inputs for the machine of capitalism to produce a commodified version of pleasure that can be generated so that people agree to become a part of the machine. To some extent, this might be part of the reason why a lot of us are here on this site - because the commodity that society offers does not have value for us, we are inclined to reject it wholesale.
Curious what is the sane option to capitallistic sociaty
 
RM5998

RM5998

Sack of Meat
Sep 3, 2018
2,206
Curious what is the sane option to capitallistic sociaty

Yeah, I think I made a generalization there.

I don't think the problem is capitalism, but the way the capitalistic societies we live in define and commodify value. You are allowed to pursue your hobbies freely, without judgement - except if they don't add some perceived value, in which case your hobbies are worthless. (In my case, me wanting to play Dota vs. me wanting to draw.) There's always going to be a fraction who don't see the value in whatever list of options their society offers. Again, I think this is part of the reason why this forum exists - we want out because there's a lack of stuff we find valuable.
 
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Tomasnil

Tomasnil

Mage
Apr 24, 2018
519
Yeah, I think I made a generalization there.

I don't think the problem is capitalism, but the way the capitalistic societies we live in define and commodify value. You are allowed to pursue your hobbies freely, without judgement - except if they don't add some perceived value, in which case your hobbies are worthless. (In my case, me wanting to play Dota vs. me wanting to draw.) There's always going to be a fraction who don't see the value in whatever list of options their society offers. Again, I think this is part of the reason why this forum exists - we want out because there's a lack of stuff we find valuable.
Any sociaty or ideoligy is good problem is the people living in then.